Discrimination of certain jobs - your opinion

[AmaSagahl]

Hey guys, I was always in a static until I gave it up and I started to pug my savages.

Especially since they lifted the restrictions on the savages (which also means the overall quality of pugs is declining, especially for o2s+ in my opinion), I found it increasingly hard to get into groups as SAM.

A lot of them requested NIN/DRG as melee, I'd say 60% on the EU datacenter, and it can be frustrating. Sometimes I even sent a tell, today I just got the answer 'BL ' back. It almost seemed discriminating. I can still do my Savages of course, that's not the point, the point is that I don't find it particularly fair that BLM and SAM really don't have much of a value right now.

I want to ask about your opinion, your experience, and I would like start a discussion in a decent manner. I don't want to bash on other jobs.

I am just asking myself, why is there not a raid wide buff for every class like in WoW?
Is there a way to make a BLM and SAM (and I guess MCH?) more valuable to the party without having to cut the dps of SAM?


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Edit:

I'm out. I keep on having to repeat myself, and people make it about me when it's not really, and it's getting a bit tedious.
Feel free to use it for a discussion regarding imbalance, or suggestions for possible solutions. Whatever floats your boat. It was a pleasure talking to y'all! I really liked some of the contributions.

[Tsumdere]

The people who exclude certain jobs are not worth raiding with in the first place.

Utility will always be favorable over DPS, unless the DPS-only DPS does absolutely insane bonkers damage. BLM and SAM don't do enough insane bonkers damage. I would like to actually see a good BLM or SAM absolutely shred bosses.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

The people who exclude certain jobs are not worth raiding with in the first place.

Utility will always be favorable over DPS, unless the DPS-only DPS does absolutely insane bonkers damage. BLM and SAM don't do enough insane bonkers damage. I would like to actually see a good BLM or SAM absolutely shred bosses.

The problem is, people scream if a job does more DPS than theirs. See all the whining at 4.0 launch about SAM DPS. But now? No one cares because they have no utility, so they get excluded. If SE makes SAM and BLM do "bonkers dmg", people will just complain again. "MY JOB DOESNT DO THE BEST DPS, FIX IT SE"

People can't have it both ways, they can't ask for utility on jobs, then complain they don't do the same DPS as jobs without utility.

Its funny, too, because these "farm parties" usually don't have people performing in a way that their utility makes up for their lack of DPS compared to a SAM who knows what they are doing.

[Tsumdere]

The problem is, people scream if a job does more DPS than theirs. See all the whining at 4.0 launch about SAM DPS. But now? No one cares because they have no utility, so they get excluded. If SE makes SAM and BLM do "bonkers dmg", people will just complain again. "MY JOB DOESNT DO THE BEST DPS, FIX IT SE"

People can't have it both ways, they can't ask for utility on jobs, then complain they don't do the same DPS as jobs without utility.

Its funny, too, because these "farm parties" usually don't have people performing in a way that their utility makes up for their lack of DPS compared to a SAM who knows what they are doing.

People were actually complaining about SAM having the highest DPS? That's pretty ridiculous.
SE should put their foot down about some things... some obviously stupid things. Weren't people QQ'ing for months/years about how MNK needs to do more damage because it has no utility?

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

People were actually complaining about SAM having the highest DPS? That's pretty ridiculous.
SE should put their foot down about some things... some obviously stupid things. Weren't people QQ'ing for months/years about how MNK needs to do more damage because it has no utility?

Yep, there were many rage threads about SAM DPS being "broken", yet no adjustments were made and now they aren't even a preferred raid job, and never were lol.

And yes, people also complained Monk had no utility and their DPS wasn't high enough. It's an endless circle.

[NolLacnala]

People were actually complaining about SAM having the highest DPS? That's pretty ridiculous.
SE should put their foot down about some things... some obviously stupid things. Weren't people QQ'ing for months/years about how MNK needs to do more damage because it has no utility?

I, personally, was complaining that they're creating a slippery slope job design creep. MNK was the greedy DPS. Then, they decided to make SAM the greedy DPS, and gave MNK a thematic cooldown. What's to stop them from implementing another Job, saying "This is THE greedy DPS" and giving SAM a cooldown. People who played MNK wanted to be the greedy DPS, and SAM stole that from them. What's to stop X from stealing it from SAM?

[AmaSagahl]

The problem is, people scream if a job does more DPS than theirs. See all the whining at 4.0 launch .... But now? No one cares because they have no utility, so they get excluded. If SE makes SAM and BLM do "bonkers dmg", people will just complain again. "MY JOB DOESNT DO THE BEST DPS, FIX IT SE"

...

I agree with the fact that Samurai doesn't do the bonkers damage that they said it would, and more importantly the current damage doesn't make up for the lack in utility.
I know that some of the best parses are from Samurais, but some SMN are close (if not even better regarding to fflogs) and BLM can also do really, really good damage.

I honestly don't care if, for example, a BLM would do better damage than me - as long as both jobs have their assets, and we wouldn't get excluded.

I don't get all the saltiness towards other jobs. I just wish it would be more balanced.

[Tridus]

Unfortunately, when you have groups that have 4 DPS slots and 10 DPS jobs, the math doesn't work. Some of them will probably be slightly better than others, and if there's any margin at all, players will tend to jump on it. It's both fair and not fair, depending on how you define "fair". Fundamentally, people want to have the best chance to clear and will take any edge they percieve as existing. They tend to overdo it and also get it wrong at times because lots of players cite "THE META!" without any understanding of what it is they're talking about.

There's very little that can be done about it except make your own group, though. When stuff is done in PF, the party gets to decide what they want. That's by design. DPS has it the worst because there's much wider disparity between the jobs and more players, though.

(It's one of the reasons I don't get excited about the idea of more healing jobs. Like, you want *more* of this problem?)

[Beckett]

Are you sure you're getting SAM discrimination because people want utility, and not just because every group already has a SAM, since they're incredibly popular?

[AmaSagahl]

@Beckett

Umm....yes? And at least on the EU datacenter, they are the least popular class right now in PF.

I was kind of hoping people would refrain from comments like this and actually contribute