On the motive of Ascians

[Estherna]

Hello everybody !

So I haven't started this game for really long, but I was wondering about the motives of the Ascians. As I'm currently doing the game in one go, from ARR to Stormblood, maybe it's easier for me to pick up some links here and there, or maybe I'm totally wrong about all of that.

One of the things that strucks me is that in general, in Final Fantasy stories, bad guys aren't evil for the sake of it. They have justifications, motives, reasons. Some of them are just that they are really crazy for a lot of reasons. Others because they seek a solution to a problem, even if the solution isn't ethical or reasonable.

We learnt during Heavensward that having Light to win isn't a better thing than if it was Darkness, as the unbalance would destroy the world. (That something that was picked up from FF3 as well).

So I was wondering if the objective of the Ascians wouldn't be, in the end, to insure that the Balance is preserved. That something that I started to wonder when Urianger told us, after the all Warriors of Darkness episode that he indeed met with the Ascians, and that they thought his curiosity and thrist of knowledge would have push him to rejoin them. Which means that it is a natural path that the Ascians have taken: scholars seeking knowledge and understanding that Light must be contain as Darkness has to be.

However they may also have understood that the vast majority of humanity wouldn't follow this path. That they would rather fight for Light, as it seems to hold the best promises : Peace, Happiness, Security... And that if no one would fight for Darkness, then Light would won in the end, Zodiark being virtually unable to do anything shattered as it is, and all life would disappear.
Of course, this theory doesn't explain all, especially the reunion and cataclysms that the Ascians seems to have a hand in (maybe it is a failsafe process ? When they see that something is about to threaten the balance, they just provoke a cataclysm to reboot the world and thus avoiding a complete disparition of the world?). This could be argued that cataclysm seems to happen when a nation is about to rule over the world or are a threat to Primals and thus could reinforce Hydaelin on the long go (Allaghans with the capture technology, Garleans with the hate of Primals and desire to wipe them all out).

So maybe, in the end, Ascians just sacrifice themselves to Darkness and hate us, the Warrior of Light, because we threaten the Balance by being too powerful, making it impossible for them to stop the victory of the Light and thus the end of the World.
So in the end, are Ascians really evil, or just play the bad guys because it is needed for the world to survive?

[Anonymoose]

The dev. team wants you asking precisely these questions.

You can never count on narrative points to be true. Sometimes we're lied to. However, there are a few considerations that stick out to me more than others (until they're disproven, at least). A lot of this information you probably already know but it helps to build a strong analysis:

#1) The end-all, be-all raison d'être of the Ascians is the second coming of Zodiark

Every Ascian we've ever come across has been acting in service to Zodiark's resurrection.

The way the cosmos works, you can somehow get into the aetherial realm by passing through the planet, like the corporeal is somehow a projection of the aetherial. I don't really understand that part, but it is what it is, lol.

The will(s) of the universe, in the aetherial realm, either inherently or through eventual division became aspected to Light and Darkness. That's the "energy spectrum" they exist on. In time, the will of the Dark accumulated more power than the will of the Light. Hydaelyn claims that Zodiark was simply greedy and desirous of power over Her (as it is in the Dark's nature to be so). She cast Him out of the aetherial realm, through the planet, and into space, where He became the moon. She claims that this was necessary self-defense.

This essentially imprisoned Zodiark; He is cut off from the aetherial realm and unable to exert influence on the cosmos. (Hydaelyn's own actions are likewise limited, though not as severely.) However, this act put such stress on the cosmological foundations of the universe that it "cracked", and like a broken mirror, cast thirteen additional reflections of the original image and scattered the Light and the Dark's remaining energy into those worlds.

The cracks in the mirror became stable, nigh-impenetrable barriers between independent, overlapped dimensions. This division and isolation of Zodiark's energies, combined with his imprisonment, have rendered Him powerless. However, acts of extreme chaos and aetherial imbalance cause these membranous "cracks" to buckle, collapsing the "Reflected" dimension back into its "Source" dimension and sending all of its aether (allegedly) back into the aetherial world. When enough of it has accumulated, it should theoretically be possible to resurrect Zodiark and circumvent the aetherial rift He is presently trapped within.

The Ascians thus seek to blow out the dimensional barriers by causing calamities, each one further weakening Hydaelyn and empowering Zodiark (somehow).

#2) The fourteen black-robed Ascians and Elidibus are on different paths.

When Elidibus makes contact with the Warrior of Light in 2.1, it sends a wave of concern through the black-robed council. Nabriales is the one to confront him, pointing out that their plans are already in motion (manipulating the Warrior of Light into inspiring more powerful primals, inspiring new primals, merging man and primal essence to escalate conflict, steering the beast tribes towards a new god) and that Elidibus shouldn't be moving unpredictably and without informing them. Elidibus counters that they have their mission and he has his own, but they're both working in service to Zodiark.

After the fall of Ramuh and his flat out assent to the Warrior of Light's path, the council starts to take Elidibus more seriously, affirming his observation that the stubborn survival of Hydaelyn's chosen and the stability of the walls of the soul in the face of seven dimensions collapsing is noteworthy and that Her champion might be forged into the final key for their plans.

#3) The only motive that matters is Elidibus's.

The black-robed Ascians have proven to be unreliable at best. They are not only working in service to the Dark, they're consumed by it. They show the same greed, instability, and pettiness that Hydaelyn accuses Zodiark of. There are strong hints that each Ascian overlord was once of the dimension it is tasked with overthrowing (thus Lahabrea's importance, being from Zodiark's original dimension), so perhaps they are corrupted mortals, and thus are the idealized Dark side of the heart of man.

Take Igeyorhm, so zealous to prove herself and fulfill her mission that she destroyed the dimension she was meant to deliver to Zodiark. Take Nabriales, so determined to undermine and outshine Lahabrea that he went rogue in the middle of an operation and got himself killed. Take Lahabrea, whose arrogance and desire to sit at Zodiark's right hand led him to be outsmarted by mortals, thus robbing the Ascians of their connection to Zodiark's power through the Source dimension and forcing Elidibus to fill the vacancy.

At the end of the day, Elidibus is, among his other roles, their babysitter. He ensures that neither the Dark nor the Light energies at work gain enough traction to destroy the dimension meant to empower Zodiark.

The black-robed Ascians are thus perhaps little more than pawns. They are Zodiark's puppets, acting out His impulses for rebirth and revenge. Notice how Lahabrea slips back and forth between espousing Elidibus's "reunion, restoration, preservation" narrative and just yelling about how Hydaelyn has to be "burned out like a parasite" and that Darkness shall consume all Light and reign forevermore. Nabriales shouted similar things as he invited the powers of the void to assist in the destruction of aether aligned to the Light end of that energy spectrum.

Lahabrea also gave away more than he knew in the Aetherochemical Research Facility, pointing out that when we forcefully separated him and Igeyorhm back into individuals, he saw this as the restoration of Hydaelyn's bondage, from which Zodiark saw him freed. The soul is a "wall".

In babysitting the master plan, Elidibus is able to weave a strong narrative to justify his actions. An observer will note that he sometimes works against the Darkness, which allows him to claim that if he works against the Light, he must have a good reason. An observer will note that he always works in the interest of balance, which allows him to claim that his allegiance is to the existence of the planet itself.

It's a compelling case, on the surface.

He's just out to heal the universe, right? He's just out to put things back on the right path, right? And that's even just accepting everything we've been told about Zodiark. What if Zodiark's actions and motivations have been cast in the Light of those who cannot understand His point of view? What if He's not so bad? Hells, maybe He is, maybe the Dark is a lot of things we think are negative. But what if they're necessary? Elidibus is just looking out for the best interests of the health of the cosmos and the continued existence of the star, right?

#4) Then what's with all the smoke?

Everything Elidibus has ever told us has been calm and logical, and moreover when he gives you information about the world and its history, it always turns out to be true. But it also continually turns out to be the case that it's not the whole story, and the parts he left out just happen to change the context of the whole.

Everything Elidibus ever told the Warriors of Darkness was true, he just led them to believe that their only options were void or rejoining and urged them to choose the "right" path, not letting all of those deaths be in vain, to rejoin their world's spiritual lifeblood to the Source and one day be reborn rather than becoming twisted, starved abominations incapable of knowing life or death again. The efforts of one scholar making tough decisions were able to save the First, Elidibus just happened to leave out that it was possible because he wanted to, because it served his agenda. He had no love for them or their world, he cast them aside the instant they were no longer useful. Even the Griffin mocked him for it.

What will be Elidibus's stance on balance once Zodiark has all the aether he needs to be resurrected?

What place will mortals have when the world is restored to a form that never knew their kind?

How does Zodiark really feel about all that is and all that has happened?

#5) I'm biased as all hells.

To the seas She cast Her children, for fear of the Moon
For hate of the Star, to the seas he cast His doom

I don't trust him for a second. I'm willing to eat my mortarboard if this turns out to be wrong, but if Elidibus is Minfilia's equivalent, then he's not out for balance. He's possessed of the will of Darkness, he is the Word of the Father, and he is a snake.

I don't even know if this opinion is a popular one, but I would be remiss to not admit my bias, lol. Besides, what if Elidibus is a snake, but more in reference to Ophiuchus and Serpens than just The Deceiver? What if Zodiark isn't terrible, eh!? Ohohoho! Loophole! /clenches fist

My (current) dream ending:

Elidibus is the true antagonist and the defeat of the recently-reborn Zodiark only causes Elidibus to become freed from his tethers and become even more of a threat. I want to see him embrace all of the things he's ever claimed to be, which I presently believe are a manipulative cover. I want to see him attempt to collapse the remaining dimensions and the Source itself (See: Time Compression) into a new Genesis in his own image.

He'd be "right" to do so; there's cosmic "justice" in it. He'd undo all the damage done to this world, preserve the existence of the concept of the universe, the idea of the cosmos, the core reality of it being a thing at all. He'd snuff out the divisive world souls and their petty war and ensure that Creation, even rebooted, was preserved and thrived. He'd be aghast that we still defy him; men throw away their lives for less righteous causes every day, why do we stand against him NOW?

Because the entire point of Final Fantasy is the best humanity has to offer stubbornly fighting for the preservation of our kind and control of its destiny. If that means killing entities intended to guard the planet, we do it. If it means killing our own gods, we do it. If it means tearing down the foundations of "natural order" and living out the rest of our lives in a beautifully broken cosmos where Life as we know it thrives, we do it. When the credits roll, the reins of history in the hands of man, for better or worse.

That said, by all means debate me into the ground and tear that apart if it makes for a good conversation!

/makes drinks for everyone

[Cilia]

The long and short of it, from what I can gather is:

1. Light and Dark are both fundamentally necessary for a world to exist. The Source (our own) is the only one in perfect balance; others are inclined more towards Light (lower numbered shards, like the Warriors of Darkness' First) or Dark (higher numbered shards, like the Thirteenth a.k.a. the Void).

2. Lahabrea's words before our first battle against him imply that Hydaelyn's banishment of Zodiark has warped the natural laws of the world, and that unless Zodiark is restored it will only get worse.

The growing imbalance afflicting the planet must be redressed. If it is permitted to worsen, the very laws of existence─both aetheric and physical─will be warped beyond all recognition. Know you the root of this corruption? Hydaelyn! Like a parasite, She must be burned out if the planet is to recover. And naught but the return of the one true god will ensure Her complete excision.

Take this with a grain of salt, as it's coming from an Ascian (and a fight-happy one to boot), but from the sounds of it Hydaelyn's banishment of Zodiark fundamentally broke the laws of nature, creating the Thirteen Shards. Those Shards each contain a fragment of Zodiark's power; to reawaken Him, the Ascians intend to cause Calamities on the Source which break down the dimensional barriers separating a Shard from the Source, Rejoining that Shard's aether to the source and empowering Zodiark. ($5 says the moon used to be verdant, or at least habitable, and that'll come back if He gets too close to resurrection.)

Of course, the Shards and Source need to be kept in balance; otherwise you get a Dark Void (aetherial compression; twisted, undying lifeforms and an aetherial singularity unsuitable for Rejoining) or a Light Void (aetherial emptiness; aether is bled from the land, leaving nothingness and no life in its wake). This is why Elidibus stresses balance, not because he has any love for Hydaelyn or the Light.

Of course, there are all sorts of details we don't know or know about, I'm sure. Elidibus just had to go and say something like "If you knew what I know, we'd be on the same side." that one time we met him in person. Either way, whether or not the Ascians are truly acting in the best interest of the world or just the Dark remains to be seen. (Fingers point to somewhere in-between; they want a victory for the Dark but without upsetting the aetherial balance of the world.)

[Enkidoh]

I take little what the Ascians say as gospel though, given their constant contradictory nature (and the fact they outright lie if it suits them). I mean, despite supposedly acting in concert with each other with the unified goal of resurrecting Zodiark, they all seem to instead be scheming and conspiring against each other (remember Lahabrea smugly saying "By my will" resulting in a stern rebuff from Elidibus in the form of "By His will" (referring to Zodiark) and a hasty (yet sarcastic) backpedal from Lahabrea accordingly).

Elidibus all but says that the Ascians that have been completely destroyed have all only deserved what they got for going beyond their station and trying to seize the initiative for themselves. It doesn't really make their arguments hold much weight to me when they're too busy backstabbing each other (hells, Elidibus himself seems to the one I actually fear may succeed, the others were just laughable with their cartoonish supervillian antics.).

No wonder Zodiark was banished if his agents act like bickering children trying to curry favour with their 'parent'.

[Anonymoose]

Elidibus just had to go and say something like "If you knew what I know, we'd be on the same side."

Unless that was another line that, while technically true, concealed a deeper meaning that we wouldn't find so agreeable.

Elidibus
The Echo is indeed a gift─albeit one you have yet to master.

Minfilia
And if we did?

Elidibus
There would be no strife between our peoples─for we would be of one mind.

When Lahabrea demonstrated for us "the true power of the Echo", he and Igeyorhm literally became of one mind.

All of our peoples? One mind? I ... no thank you. Hydaelyn's damnable walls suit me just fine.

[TinyRedLeaf]

One of the things that strucks me is that in general, in Final Fantasy stories, bad guys aren't evil for the sake of it... So in the end, are Ascians really evil, or just play the bad guys because it is needed for the world to survive?

Hi there. Welcome to Eorzea, and I'm glad you're enjoying some of the deeper questions raised by the game's narrative.

Anonymoose has more than adequately addressed the major plot points related to your questions, with further clarifications by Cilia and Enkidoh. Allow me to touch on some of the more metaphysical points underpining the way "good" and "evil" are often portrayed in Japanese pop media.

First of all, while "light" and "darkness" are usually synonymous with "good" and "evil" — and is even more usually portrayed that way in Final Fantasy stories, including this one — it's more useful to look beyond the apparent dichotomy, and think of it as a duality instead.

For example, darkness exists when light casts a shadow. Where there's light, there will be darkness — they define each other. Another way to think about this is to recognise that when we say something is "beautiful", we necessarily mean that something exists which is also "not beautiful", in other words, "ugly". We cannot know what is "beautiful", without also knowing what is "ugly". Like "light" and "darkness", these apparently opposite concepts define each other.

==========

What I'm trying to drive at, is that it's not necessarily "balance" that the Ascians are trying to preserve. What do the Ascians actually mean, for example, when they claim that the nature of reality changed after Hydaelyn banished Zodiark to the moon? On the cosmological level, this can be easily understood as the sundering of the world into fourteen shards.

But on a more philosophical level, the question goes deeper than mere balance: Light and darkness, while apparently in contradiction, are two necessary halves that also complement each other.

This is the essence of Tao. While this may be a distinctively Chinese philosophical concept, its influence is widespread across East Asia, including in Japan, where it has had a role in the development of Zen Buddhism.

What you will find, over time, is that many of the stories you'll come across in popular Japanese media — be they manga, anime or video games — are often influenced, usually at a subconscious level, by Taoist thought or Buddhist philosophy. They encapsulate a worldview, and a morality, that is fundamentally different from Western concepts of good and evil.

Westerners often find this worldview refreshingly different, because it inherently encourages one to gravitate towards the "grey area", where good and evil are not easy to separate and define. The instinctive reaction is to think that there's a preference for "balance", which eschews the crusading instinct common in monotheistic religions, where the "good" are called upon to conquer the "evil".

The struggle between good and evil is universal in all human cultures. But Taoist thought transcends this struggle, and seeks to encourage people to accept and harmonise both aspects as fundamental parts of our nature.

In practical terms, for example, it means accepting that we'll sometimes be selfish, and also sometimes altruistic. Just because we're sometimes selfish doesn't mean we're bad people. It means we're only human. We make mistakes, but we can also learn from mistakes, as we each try to find our Way ( 道 ) in life.

==========

At this point, you're probably wondering what does all this mumbo-jumbo have to do with FFXIV!

Well, consider this, the Taoist approach to cosmology, as described in the Tao Te Jing:

There was something undifferentiated and yet complete,
Which existed before Heaven and Earth.

Soundless and formless, it depends on nothing, and does not change.

It operates everywhere and is free from danger.
It may be considered the mother of the universe.

I do not know its name; I call it Tao ( 道 ).

Here's how the Encyclopaedia Britannica attempted to explain the concept:

Tao is the "imperceptible, indiscernible", about which nothing can be predicated but which latently contains the forms, entities, and forces of all particular phenomena.

"It was from the Nameless that heaven and earth sprang; the Named is the mother that rears the Ten Thousand Things, each after its kind."

The Nameless ( 无名 ) and the Named ( 有名 ) — Nothing ( 无 ) and Something ( 有 ) — are interdependent and "grow out of one another".

Nothing and Tao are not identical; wu ( 无 ) and you ( 有 ) are two aspects of the constant Tao ( 道 ).

Nothing does not mean "Nothingness" but rather something that's indeterminate, due to the absence of perceptible qualities... It is the Void, which harbours in itself all potential Somethings.

Without the Void, there's Nothing from which Something can emerge.

Can you see the potential references now?



Why are the Ascians so driven by their apparent nihilism? Why is Elidibus so convinced that Dark ( Zodiark ) and Light ( Hydaelyn ) must be made whole again? How can the destruction of all mortal life as we know it be preferable to this "Unity" that the Ascians seem to so desire?

These are questions that I've been reflecting on, with reference to the broader influences on the Japanese/East Asian worldviews that directly or indirectly give birth to the grand narrative unfolding in FFXIV. These are the reasons I so greatly enjoy JRPGs like Final Fantasy, Shin Megami Tensei, Persona, Nier Automata, and many more of their kind — because they delve into these concepts that are so completely absent in Western games, great stories even though they also have.

As Chinese myself, growing up in an East Asian society, these are concepts that are not only familiar to me, but also resonate in ways that classic tales of good versus evil no longer do.

And it's always a pleasure to find people from other cultures being inspired by a game like FFXIV, to start on similar journeys of discovery.

[Cilia]

I never meant to imply that I agree with the Ascians' goals. As a very individualistic person, I disagree with using the Echo to fuse with others on principle, and would never agree with killing every living thing for Zodiark's restoration.

I was just pointing out that, for all the doom and gloom, we... still don't know what would actually happen in the case of Zodiark's revival. It's widely accepted that it would lead to the end of mortal life on Hydaelyn (or at least life as we know it), and for that reason alone I kind of have to oppose it. That "If you knew what I know, we'd be on the same side" from Elidibus is still just so tantalizing, even years later...

[Theodric]

Zodiark is definitely a dangerous player - at least based on what we've seen and heard from Elidibus - but I stand by the theory that Hydaelyn, too, isn't exactly reliable and the best thing for mortals either. At various points she appears to be deliberately vague and withholds key bits of information in a way that led to revelations coming to light purely as a result of Urianger's schemes. It doesn't sit well with me that she is well aware of the Ascians and Elidibus scheming and manipulating people yet refuses to be direct and clear herself. I think there's more to the conflict between Zodiark and Hydaelyn than what we've heard from either Elidibus or the Goddess herself.

I think there's merit to the idea of 'balance as a necessity' - but it needs to be maintained in a way that doesn't play into either Elidibus' or Hydaelyn's plans. Of course, Hydaelyn could simply be pure, perfect and righteous...but I feel like that would be rather boring in the grand scheme of things. Still, so far it seems certain that too much Light is just as dangerous as too much Dark. So I'm inclined to believe that it's safe to expand that to Zodiark and Hydaelyn themselves. Too much Zodiark is bad yet so too is too much Hydaelyn.

[Naraku_Diabolos]

*snip*

Now that you mention it about Hydaelyn hiding some things from us players, it makes sense now. Like she stopped communicating with us from the end of 2.0 to 2.55, then talks again at the end of 3.0 and then at 3.1 with Minfillia. She may very well be in a weakened state, but it's way to fishy because she withdrew herself and then fades in and out with trying to communicate with us. Then she took Minfillia away and is using her as a host (as if Hydaelyn IS a parasite) because she can't talk to us directly. In a way, I think Hydaelyn is hiding more secrets than we know as you mentioned. And if she is truly weakened, it makes me believe that she may never recover unless something drastic were to happen. Either die off and there be nothing left or merge with Zodiark again. As many users mentioned before me, there needs to be a balance. Hydaelyn is nothing but pure Light and holiness... Light needs Darkness. It's like tipping a scale in one direction. You can't have one without the other.

[Theodric]

It's also very interesting that the last thing we heard from her is her intention to travel to the Warrior of Darkness' home world to absorb the excess Light. Now, given that the WoD did everything he was told to do that implies to me that Hydaelyn willingly risked the First Shard flooding with Light just so she could recover some of her strength. At the very least she appears to be taking advantage of the situation, though it makes no sense to me that she is 'good' in the typical sense if she actively allows the Dark to be thwarted to the extent that it risks an entire world being ruined in the process. The Warrior of Darkness may have been manipulated by Elidibus but so, too, did Hydaelyn do the same thing.

Though I doubt we will get many answers anytime soon. 4.2 is likely to explore the aftermath of Doma's liberation - 4.3 will likely be when things kick off properly again.