Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[Llugen]

@Diva:

That's the thing though, it CAN fit. We just collectively need to have a little imagination. Nothing says "raw destruction" to me like channeling someone else's life force to do increased damage.

Also, at some point, lore MUST give way to balance. Bard being able to tank makes no sense because bard doesn't HAVE to be able to tank (if nothing else, it can just kite). The majority of the caster role is able to raise, and BLM is not, so let's make it fit. Furthermore, since at some point lore MUST give way to balance, and we are talking about progression/endgame/ultimate here, the job is gimped by not having it. This is not really applicable in hard mode dungeons (although the ability to raise the healer in a light party would also be very nice) since balance there.... who even cares? Beat the dungeon as fast as possible on the jobs you have in the duty finder with you.

Just because you in particular (or anyone) might not care about having it doesn't mean that there aren't those playing it at a different level who DO care about having it (better to have and not need than need and not have).


@Remedi:

We hashed this out once already; since no one foresees SE changing Rez Dispenser/SMN's Resurrect, BLM should be given something to compete on the front. It's that simple. And again, given the ability to Raise even once every 3 minutes and better access to movement tools in progression, you bet your bottom dollar that I would be playing BLM in progression since AT LEAST it can compete.

@Ogru:

No, not really. Nothing is stopping RDMs from being RDMs, everyone loves Embolden (and hopefully it also gets some love). SMNs might be a better choice damage-wise, but RDM is still perfectly capable, and by its nature should be the weakest damage/highest support caster (which currently the support aspect of that needs to be addressed, yes). Note that plenty of SMNs and several RDMs have cleared unending coil... and zero BLMs have.


Unfortunately the consensus currently is that BLM is in fact NOT the most rewarding once a fight has been practiced thoroughly, since SMN is stronger damage anyway, but this pertains to the other thread. Furthermore, I don't want to be able to switch to BLM only after progression has ended (and I don't want RDMs to have to switch to BLM after progression has ended, either). That's the point of that particular quote. I want to play my job and I want the others to play theirs. I don't want to feel guilty playing a job that is measurably less useful in progression. This is bad design.


SMN would definitely not be eclipsed because it still has raise whenever, not to mention radiant shield contagion and devotion (as well as insane burst capability, which BLM will NEVER have due to the off-gcd nature of SMN and the hardcast GCD nature of BLM). And lolrez dispenser+support. Saying that Raise alone is the only thing that lets the other casters be viable is... a bit ridiculous to be honest.

I'll say again that, at some point, lore MUST give way for balance. And the caster role is not balanced.



Lastly, most of my frustration has subsided now that we're actually discussing the nuance of the issue rather than the yourstupidmuh'splosions posts we were getting last night. I apologize for getting snippy, but it blows my mind that some people can ignore what's right in front of their faces. A 25 page thread about BLM needing raise, and you seriously don't think the "it has infinite MP in Umbral" stipulation hasn't come up yet??? Lurk harder, we have work to do here, and obviously people are filling those pages with posts about SOMETHING.








******RESPONSE TO THE BELOW COMMENT BY REMEDI SINCE FORUM POST ALLOTMENT******

I mean, even the ability to raise my healer who made a mistake once during one pull is better than saying "welp, wish we had a rez dispenser" and wiping. That IS substantial, in my opinion, and all the job really needs. My group (and many groups I've been in) have said to me and others directly "wow sure wish we had a rez dispenser/SMN right now" because of mistakes/deaths. Even one simple raise is substantial enough to say "hey, I have this option so we aren't totally screwed! It might not be as good as rez dispensing, but it's enough, so deal with it."

Besides, by your logic, the recast nature of the ability would encourage players not to die more, which is the point you were trying to make some 10 pages back; we should be removing our reliance on raise in general rather than coddling it.

*****************************************************************************

[Remedi]

Ye we did, the important part was the second half of the comment on what I mean by it needs something substantial to change ppl mind

[PrismaticDaybreak]

"Lore must give way to balance" "RDM can't have any buffs in their damage because of their lore" Top keks.

[Remedi]

I mean, even the ability to raise my healer who made a mistake once during one pull is better than saying "welp, wish we had a rez dispenser" and wiping. That IS substantial, in my opinion, and all the job really needs. My group (and many groups I've been in) have said to me and others directly "wow sure wish we had a rez dispenser/SMN right now" because of mistakes/deaths. Even one simple raise is substantial enough to say "hey, I have this option so we aren't totally screwed! It might not be as good as rez dispensing, but it's enough, so deal with it."

Besides, by your logic, the recast nature of the ability would encourage players not to die more, which is the point you were trying to make some 10 pages back; we should be removing our reliance on raise in general rather than coddling it.

It's not false what you say, but it is substantial if you compare it to the BLM of now, but compared to RDM/SMN it won't be something that would really make ppl change their mind about BLM beign suboptimal, because that raise is extremely inferior to what the other 2 jobs can do and the versatility they can achieve.
That's why I think that if you really want to give the possibility to BLM it's best to simply move raise to the role action so that all casters will have access to, have to choose what to replace, have the possibility of discarding it eventually and all 3 will have a personal way to interact it.

Note I'm not changing my mind on the topic, but I think that to achieve what you want you need to really pull out big guns to change ppl ideas on the subject anything else and you'll still be bugged about bringing ress dispenser

[MoroMurasaki]

Soooo... homogenization is key?

Where is the thread about RDM/SMN needing unlimited MP? How about SMN lacking the teleports/jumps of BLM/RDM?

The casters all have an identity and function well within their individual limitations, BLM lacking a raise is fine. Plus... Unlimited raises because unlimited MP? Does that sound fun? The term 'rez dispenser' is geting thrown around to belittle RDMs in this thread but if BLM had a raise you know no other party member would cast one ever again.

[Remedi]

I don't considr BLM having infinite MP at all anymore tbh, they can sustain indefinitively their rotation but their MP pool is all reserved for keeping up the rotation to the point you don't have any spare left for anything else or you get a huge dmg loss.

[kidalutz]

this has gone off topic again. Heres the skinny BLM dont need rez.

[Sfia]

I can understand the viewpoint that lore-wise, BLM should NOT get a raise. From a balance standpoint however, it requires it, OR something of equivalent value as a defensive utility. And because raise is so powerful a tool, any ability with a benefit that matches it would be very difficult to implement and balance.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

I can understand the viewpoint that lore-wise, BLM should NOT get a raise. From a balance standpoint however, it requires it, OR something of equivalent value as a defensive utility. And because raise is so powerful a tool, any ability with a benefit that matches it would be very difficult to implement and balance.

You could make the argument that balance wise BLM wouldn't want it since the BLM rotation is tight enough as it is. Plus defensive utility is the worst kind of utility, it always has a timer on usefulness.

[Sfia]

There are always ways to work around that issue, put it on a timed cooldown and make it instant for example.
It depends what you're looking for. In speedruns defensive utility loses a lot of its value but very few groups operate at a level where that makes a big difference, whereas every raiding team WILL do progression - where defensive utility shines the brightest.
In my opinion, both offense and defense need to be increased. Not increasing defensive utility would lead to issues of its damage needing to be exorbitantly high (read: overpowered) to be in a form worth playing.