Colliseum/Solo Instances

[BillyKaplan]

A recent example is Shinryu which everyone was complaining to be nerfed but they didn't which forced players to "get good".

I wouldn't say everyone got good, but eventually everyone got overgeared which made it easier to carry people.

My biggest concern when it comes to adding more solo content is how badly people will cry for it to be nerfed and simplified even when it's obvious things are supposed to propose a challenge (this doesn't include PotD which seems to be more impossible than just challenging, and more references someone who has Shinryu ex on farm who wanted a nerf for it). Look at everyone who had a hard time passing the 4.1 solo instance and demanded anything from a nerf to letting them bring someone else in. Now, we're likely speaking purely optional content here, which I'd be all for, but when has that ever stopped anyone from complaining about content?

[Soupa]

Look at everyone who had a hard time passing the 4.1 solo instance and demanded anything from a nerf to letting them bring someone else in.

Yeah it was perfect. 10/10 gatekeeping.

[kikix12]

If we want someone to get better then there needs to be more gatekeeping content like before things like Steps of Faith, Vault, and Nidhogg before they were nerfed. A recent example is Shinryu which everyone was complaining to be nerfed but they didn't which forced players to "get good".

No, not really. Those that couldn't do it, didn't, waited for the others to do it and get better gear...and then were carried by them. By now, losing two or so players in Shinryu isn't that much of a hit. Especially if they were DPS.

This games battle content is almost entirely group based so I don't see how solo content would help anyone really improve outside of their rotation which can be done at a training dummy.

Rotation learning can be done on a training dummy...if you either checked the walkthrough for your class to learn it first, use a parser, or spend a lot of time doing the calculations manually. Not to mention, this just trains the basic ability to do that rotation when you are not interrupted, but speaks nothing of your ability to maintain it (or as close to it as possible) when you are in actual combat where there are mechanics and attacks which you need to adapt to.

As for the game being heavily group-content, it'll stay that way unless they'll add some solo content, which is what I suggest.

All in all, a players ability is a derivative of both their individual ability and skill with the class (which only solo content with challenging, active opponents can teach, or a parser to filter out the outside interference) and their ability to adapt and cooperate with a group (this is what group play teaches, and on its own, this is good enough only for the standard content up to expert dungeons). We have plenty of means to train group abilities, but barely any (aka. virtually none) to train individual abilities.

Healers especially would get barely anything out of this because they're supposed to be taking care of a party.

Yes, the educative part of the suggestion would have much less impact on healers. It would teach them to better manage their mana, cooldowns like Largesse and DPS and heal, but it would not help them get better at helping others. However, healers have means of training their main focal point, while DPS must go blindly by trail and error, use parsers which are not supported officially, or have very good instincts for these kinds of things. Most people don't have instincts at that level, many people hate parsers or don't even know they exist (or don't want to risk getting banned) and trial and error is very disheartening when not only can you come across players that will trash-talk at you, but also other players like you that still lack the skills, and can even hold you back, so that you cannot really say whether you've improved or not at all.


That being said, whether it would be practical or not in the long run, it's still content and it's still meant to be fun. And it would be a fine choice for DPS that just have a short time to play and want to do something meaningful, so even for the entertainment factor, it would still be enough.


I didn't know about the 1.0 version and it causing a problem though...Well, either way, details like that can be mixed and matched as necessary. It's more of a story-building thing which is beyond the scope of this thread. It could be solved with a different coliseum, it could be solved with an instance "hub" that is entered from the gladiators guild or its vicinity, too.

[BillyKaplan]

As for the game being heavily group-content, it'll stay that way unless they'll add some solo content, which is what I suggest.

There's "add some solo content", and there's "turn this into a single player game with optional group content". Be sure not to lose sight of this difference, this is still an MMORPG. I'm all in favor of adding more solo content, but I doubt they'll suddenly tilt this heavily in that direction.

Yes, the educative part of the suggestion would have much less impact on healers. It would teach them to better manage their mana, cooldowns like Largesse and DPS and heal, but it would not help them get better at helping others.

It arguably can, though it would require a change to how solo encounters are currently implemented. So much of your kit is wasted because the NPCs aren't considered party members. However, we've seen via the Squad missions that that doesn't have to be the case. Have solo content automatically build a party to include you and the NPCs so your group spells and buffs work on them. This can be done, even in the early AST quests you could use your cards on the NPCs, the text instructions even tell you to do it. They just need to make this a more framework function instead of something that seems to work only in rare and few instances.

[Soupa]

No, not really. Those that couldn't do it, didn't,

Good, the way it should be.

Rotation learning can be done on a training dummy...if you either checked the walkthrough for your class to learn it first, use a parser, or spend a lot of time doing the calculations manually. Not to mention, this just trains the basic ability to do that rotation when you are not interrupted, but speaks nothing of your ability to maintain it (or as close to it as possible) when you are in actual combat where there are mechanics and attacks which you need to adapt to.

This could/should be learned passively while playing and we have the hall of the novice on top of that.

As for the game being heavily group-content, it'll stay that way unless they'll add some solo content, which is what I suggest.

I enjoy it now the way it is, its why I play online games to group with people. If people want solo content that badly they shouldn't be playing this game, not to say there shouldn't be any solo content but no way as large of a shift as you're suggesting.

Yes, the educative part of the suggestion would have much less impact on healers. It would teach them to better manage their mana, cooldowns like Largesse and DPS and heal, but it would not help them get better at helping others. However, healers have means of training their main focal point, while DPS must go blindly by trail and error, use parsers which are not supported officially, or have very good instincts for these kinds of things.

Again all suggested and done in hall of the novice. If you are a level 70 healer and are still having trouble managing mana with lucid dream on the bar you might wanna reevaluate your class choice. Largesse is a purely situational cooldown as well, its for large incoming damage during fights which you'll have to play to figure out anyway, I rarely need it in normal content. As for the trail and error thing, welcome to FFxiv may I take your order?

[kikix12]

Good, the way it should be.

You missed the part where they did it month or so later, being carried and continuing on the main quest without ever getting any better...

I enjoy it now the way it is, its why I play online games to group with people. If people want solo content that badly they shouldn't be playing this game, not to say there shouldn't be any solo content but no way as large of a shift as you're suggesting.

So do I, generally. But you see, when most people I meet in random parties don't even respond to a simple hi, when in a free company saying "Hi" on log-in gives me maybe one or two responses even if there are seven or more people on and when the people I am familiar with and thus want to party and play with are around the world with different time zones and their own real lives on top of me having my own, it's nice to have some solo content to do here or there. A game that is rarely played stops being interesting, and this game costing per month (and for me, that's quite a significant amount, I could get two-three games every month just for what the sub costs me) doesn't help it. If I can only expect to play with random-AI "bots" (as that's what most people in duty finder parties are) or for a few hours every couple of days/weeks with people I know, then where is the problem?!

Especially with the DPS queue's being so long, and a lot of play time being even more wasted (unless you are interested in limited few options that can be done while waiting, FATE for example once nearly making me auto-withdraw due to time-out, as I had to change class and managed to do that in the very last second), some valid, satisfying content to go to would be helpful.

No one tells you to do it. There will still be plenty of people that do the group content. I honestly don't know what's with that argument coming so often, when the main content will not lose anything out. One would need to be on a virtually dead server way out of prime hours, and that's really not something I can imagine with how this game solves that by simply cross-world duty finder...


What would be better. A player that quits completely, or a player that still groups up here or there, while soloing otherwise?!

[Dzian]

The main scenario should ALL be harder honestly. And I don't say that out of any form of epeenery or such.

The issue is the main scenario story quite frequently includes some very dire and grim situations even a few where practically all hope is lost. And yet the difficulty of it portrays absolutely none of that tension or desperation the story is trying to build up. It's completely disconnected.

Oh ma god the dragons are attacking ishgard panic and chaos everywhere. Enter steps of faith roflstomp it with absolutely no threat of losing... And walk out a hero. Really there was no threat at all.... threat? what threat? the ease completely destroys the tension and atmosphere the plot tries to create. and it's the same all the way through..

I also think every single instance or battle in the MSQ should be doable with friends precisely because this is an MMO and multiplayer game. and it'd be much more fun and enjoyable that way.

It just doenst make sense why 4 of us were there trying to all get into our own instance of cold steel when we could have grouped up and gone in together as friends and had a lot more fun doing so and also reduced the stress on the server becuase less total instances running... and then later in the msq, the naadam? man that would have been epic fun with friends..

MMO's are supposed to be a social game as well yet XIV frequently says Sorry you cant progress because your in a party with friends.... and must be an anti social solo player in order to progress, please leave all your friends behind.. this is not a single player game....

And then people wonder why the community is so superficial and anti social and no one really talks or has any loyalty to statics fcs or even linkshells and why all these groups of players always fall apart.

[Soupa]

You missed the part where they did it month or so later, being carried and continuing on the main quest without ever getting any better...

Thats fine, they paid in valuable time instead, during that month a bunch of people moved on to relevant content while they have to play catch up.

So do I, generally. But you see, when most people I meet in random parties don't even respond to a simple hi, when in a free company saying "Hi" on log-in gives me maybe one or two responses even if there are seven or more people on and when the people I am familiar with and thus want to party and play with are around the world with different time zones and their own real lives on top of me having my own, it's nice to have some solo content to do here or there. A game that is rarely played stops being interesting, and this game costing per month (and for me, that's quite a significant amount, I could get two-three games every month just for what the sub costs me) doesn't help it. If I can only expect to play with random-AI "bots" (as that's what most people in duty finder parties are) or for a few hours every couple of days/weeks with people I know, then where is the problem?!

Especially with the DPS queue's being so long, and a lot of play time being even more wasted (unless you are interested in limited few options that can be done while waiting, FATE for example once nearly making me auto-withdraw due to time-out, as I had to change class and managed to do that in the very last second), some valid, satisfying content to go to would be helpful.

No one tells you to do it. There will still be plenty of people that do the group content. I honestly don't know what's with that argument coming so often, when the main content will not lose anything out. One would need to be on a virtually dead server way out of prime hours, and that's really not something I can imagine with how this game solves that by simply cross-world duty finder...

This sounds like you need to move onto greener pastures to improve your FFXIV experience and is more of a community issue then a game issue. As for it being optional that just means no one will do it, look at all the optional content this game has that most people hardly touch.

What would be better. A player that quits completely, or a player that still groups up here or there, while soloing otherwise?!

If said player is soloing constantly and hardly grouping then in my opinion they should quit. I sure wouldn't play this game if I spent the majority of my time alone and I doubt said player would be happy paying a sub fee for playing a single player MMO.

[basketofseals]

Are you serious?! I specifically mentioned palace of the dead as worthless, since whatever you can do solo, you can do a lot better with a party. Not to mention, there are many mobs that have barely any mechanics (except for the bosses every ten floors), with somewhat low life and somewhat high attack to compensate...

I'm going to have to seriously ask you what exactly you're expecting. Multiple tailor made encounters for each job?

There's literally no way to create even a relatively challenging solo encounter with only one design. Moreover, even if they did attempt this, jobs don't have enough mechanical complexity in order to make such an encounter engaging. With only one person, your mechanics are mostly limited to: don't stand here, kill add, interact with thing, gaze attacks, whatever we call that rolling countdown dice thing. I can't think of anything else really. Most mechanical difficulty is how mechanics interact with other members of your group.

[kikix12]

I'm going to have to seriously ask you what exactly you're expecting. Multiple tailor made encounters for each job?

Not at all. Some NPC's that represent certain "jobs" (whether or not based on player characters jobs) with stats that are based on the players levels. A simple progression similar to what simple progression players characters have. If certain NPC's couldn't actually be defeated by certain classes? Oh, well. One could leave them open for the challenge (and maybe proving the world wrong), or lock them out for those jobs.

There's literally no way to create even a relatively challenging solo encounter with only one design. Moreover, even if they did attempt this, jobs don't have enough mechanical complexity in order to make such an encounter engaging.

Did you level paladin and progress with his coliseum job quests? They may not have been difficult (because they were done with the progression in mind), but they were certainly enjoyable. If jobs don't have enough mechanical complexity to them for playing them to be fun, then I'm not sure you and I play this game for the same reasons. That's perfectly fine and all, but it's not an argument as to why it shouldn't be done. There is content in this game that others enjoy which I don't, like crafting, and it never crossed my mind to stop such content from being there. Because if the cost to demand is satisfying, why not? There is a lot of hardly used content, and part of it is with that content requiring a lot of players. Those that want to do it can't, cause there aren't enough people to play it with. In that respect, this would already be more successful, since the amount of players that would use it here or there as means of leveling solo would be reasonable. And it does have a possibility for a lot of group content, too. Something like Wolves Den as PvP hub, but for PvE instead.

With only one person, your mechanics are mostly limited to: don't stand here, kill add, interact with thing, gaze attacks, whatever we call that rolling countdown dice thing. I can't think of anything else really. Most mechanical difficulty is how mechanics interact with other members of your group.

How is that different from group encounter? There are few, like stack up or spread out, but they are ultimately just "be at the right place at the right time". And how are fighting games, I mean literally fighting games, like Tekken, doing so well if "simplicity" is bad?! It's not. Simple mechanics don't need to be easy. AoE's stacked one on top of another are harder to dodge than an AoE once in a blue moon. Add a different mechanic, like tethered orbs which you need to avoid touching you, and the complexity using only simple things go up, and so does the challenge. There are countless extremely engaging single player games. You know why?! Because people, unlike you apparently, realize that there are means of making stuff engaging and they try to achieve that, instead of giving up before the starting line.

Besides, I'm talking here about training individual characters abilities. Mechanics that are dependent on group clearing them have a full coverage with that kind of content. You can say all you want that these skills are useless in group content, but math proves anyone making such claim wrong.