A challenge to Naoki "Yoshi-P" Yoshida

[Wintersandman]

Not even close to true. The complaints are that Dark Knight does not bring a unique element to tanking that another tank doesn’t also do better.

You should at least try reading the nature of the complaints since July. But that’s the short of it.

I would say self heals on DRK are way better. I watch DRK's struggle in dungeons but as soon as they Optimize their buffs then DRK is very self sustaining. Now Raids may be a difference but still DASE is a nice self heal that is every 3 GCD's which is better than the other tanks.

That self heal is only available in tank stance but it is players pushing the meta that we should stay in DPS stance not the way the class is designed.

[whiskeybravo]

I would say self heals on DRK are way better. I watch DRK's struggle in dungeons but as soon as they Optimize their buffs then DRK is very self sustaining. Now Raids may be a difference but still DASE is a nice self heal that is every 3 GCD's which is better than the other tanks.

That self heal is only available in tank stance but it is players pushing the meta that we should stay in DPS stance not the way the class is designed.

It's not better than war as storm's path self heal is active outside of defiance. DRK has a really nice self heal for aoe situations in DAAD, but if we're talking about tank stance then DRK is still pretty far behind because war has Inner Beast, Steel Cyclone and Equilibirum for self-heals in tank stance, along with the storm's path self heal, and even Thrill of Battle if it's not being used to buff Upheaval.

So both playing in or out of tank stance doesn't matter, DRK is relatively behind. 1 heal out / 2 heals in (tank stance). War as 1 heal out / 4 in (2/5 if we count TOB). PLD just has Clemency, which is obviously powerful, but comes at an expense of damage output which the other tanks don't necessarily have to worry about (with regards to self-healing). Though it's not technically a self-heal, I would say there is a significant edge to TBN, as shielding damage outright is always preferred to healing up damage taken.

[Wintersandman]

It's not better than war as storm's path self heal is active outside of defiance. DRK has a really nice self heal for aoe situations in DAAB, but if we're talking about tank stance then DRK is still pretty far behind because war has Inner Beast, Steel Cyclone and Equilibirum for self-heals in tank stance, along with the storm's path self heal, and even Thrill of Battle if it's not being used to buff Upheaval.

But War IB and Steel Cyclone are both tied to Rage which is 6 GCD's just to get one heal. So really it is IB or Steel Cyclone.

I am not saying that DRK doesn't need improvements but to say it can't stay up is a fallacy as I had no issues 60-70 in dungeons.

[HyoMinPark]

But War IB and Steel Cyclone are both tied to Rage which is 6 GCD's just to get one heal. So really it is IB or Steel Cyclone.

I am not saying that DRK doesn't need improvements but to say it can't stay up is a fallacy as I had no issues 60-70 in dungeons.

Just want to say that just because you didn't have any issues doesn't mean they don't exist.
DA+AD spam is not nearly as spammable as it was back in HW since the nerf to Blood Price. You can get out maybe 2-3 now but before you could spam it for the entire BP duration with a well-sized pack.

[whiskeybravo]

But War IB and Steel Cyclone are both tied to Rage which is 6 GCD's just to get one heal. So really it is IB or Steel Cyclone.

I am not saying that DRK doesn't need improvements but to say it can't stay up is a fallacy as I had no issues 60-70 in dungeons.

Yes, but you're only in either an AOE or ST situation, so as war you have a self heal for either. You aren't going to DAAD a single target just for the self heal. I haven't played DRK enough recently to know exactly, but there's a cap to the number of DAAD you can execute at any given time as well. It's very MP intensive and you need about as many GCDs (sans BP/BW) to build the MP back up as you do to build rage on war. No? Even if you have all your buffs up and can spam them back to back to back.. So can war. Where is DRK's advantage?

Aside from that, the only real issue with DRK in dungeons is they are lacking a bit in their mitigation kit compared to PLD/WAR. They simply do not have as many CDs available. Doesn't mean they drop dead every pull, but when you have all 3 leveled it's a pretty obvious disparity. However, that's not the issue. The main concern is what they bring to a raid group, which right now is nothing that the other 2 tanks don't already do better.

[Wintersandman]

Just want to say that just because you didn't have any issues doesn't mean they don't exist.
DA+AD spam is not nearly as spammable as it was back in HW since the nerf to Blood Price. You can get out maybe 2-3 now but before you could spam it for the entire BP duration with a well-sized pack.

I get 4-5 off as you get enough Blood to use Queitus or Delirium. Once you have both then I have gotten up to 6 on a pack before but I will also weave in a syphon strike here or there just so I can DAAD more. I would also rather go Hard, Syphon, DA + AD as it will regain more health and do more damage than completing the SE combo on a pack of 4 or greater. So while yes it isn't spammable you can still get it off every 3 GCD's depending on your rotation.

It's very MP intensive and you need about as many GCDs (sans BP/BW) to build the MP back up as you do to build rage on war. No?[/I]

One Syphon Strike in Grit returns enough MP for a DA. So you can DASE every 3 gcds for a self heal. So if you want to compare warrior over a 7 GCD span you have 890 potency self healing with warrior (SP for 270 x 2 + 350) and DRK at 880 (DASE is 440 x 2) with one GCD into the next self heal. If we want to compare it over 21 GCD's you will have 3,080 potency in self healing on DRK and 2,670 on WAR. Using a 2.5s GCD at 60 seconds using equilibrium is where you start to notice some differences and where war pulls ahead with DRK at 3520 and WAR 4140. These numbers are just raw potency because (a portion of health) is too hard to define.

Like I said previously. I am not saying DRK doesn't have issues they just aren't as bad as saying "I can't run Doma Castle because I am tooo squishy".

[Chrono_Rising]

I get 4-5 off as you get enough Blood to use Queitus or Delirium. Once you have both then I have gotten up to 6 on a pack before but I will also weave in a syphon strike here or there.

Dark Knight certainly spams more than Warrior, I agree with this completely. However, if you look at steel cyclone it is 200 potency without a damage penalty, where as Dark Knight Abyssal Drain does have a damage penalty in tank stance.

AD has an effective potency of about 115 in tank stance.

SC has a base potency of 200, but with their 20% buff and 30% buff the effective potency for the AOE is cranked up to 312.

This means that SC is restoring 171% more HP than AD, being able to fill your beast guage to 100 and have infuriate means you can hit this three times while fully buffed. Though we might spam AD twice as often in ideal conditions, SC restores more than twice the amount of HP in its ideal conditions.

For the warrior those ideal conditions will also line up once a minute. For the dark knight those ideal conditions are going to line up every two minutes.

This is without touching Equilibrium, ToB, or hitting their combo for HP refills.

I tend to feel warrior has many more ways of restoring its hp in tank stance than dark knight both in AOE and ST situations.

[Wintersandman]

For the warrior those ideal conditions will also line up once a minute. For the dark knight those ideal conditions are going to line up every two minutes.

About every 2 AD you can get a Queitus off which changes it. The 2 minutes are only if you're lining up with Delirium. On AoE packs (5 or more) it is also better to save the DA to continue to AD than DACS and CS returns generally enough mana to get off an AD. Especially if you weave it into a partial SE combo for Syphon Strike.

[Chrono_Rising]

About every 2 AD you can get a Queitus off which changes it. The 2 minutes are only if you're lining up with Delirium. On AoE packs (5 or more) it is also better to save the DA to continue to AD than DACS and CS returns generally enough mana to get off an AD. Especially if you weave it into a partial SE combo for Syphon Strike.

Yes, I don’t disagree with the priorities you are setting. It doesn’t change the fact that the ideal for selfsustain is under delirium which is on a two minute timer.

Warriors on SC alone are restoring the effect of 2.7 AD. Not to mention that warriors will not break their combos in ideal conditions. To spam AD you actually want to stop using SE cutting away some of your self sustain. And warrior still has cooldowns for selfsustain once all this is finished.

Warrior definitely has better selfsustain over Dark Knight.

[Wintersandman]

Yes, I don’t disagree with the priorities you are setting. It doesn’t change the fact that the ideal for selfsustain is under delirium which is on a two minute timer.

Warriors on SC alone are restoring the effect of 8 AD. Not to mention that warriors will not break their combos in ideal conditions. To spam AD you actually want to stop using SE cutting away some of your self sustain. And warrior still has cooldowns for selfsustain once all this is finished.

Warrior definitely has better selfsustain over Dark Knight.

I am also not disagreeing that DRK couldn't use some adjustments. I just disagree that it is unplayable which this whole thread is about. I have only seen some good suggestions to changing DRK but the rest are just OP or return it to 3.0.

Also you are ignoring that you can DA + AD every 3 GCDS which I already stated you would cutoff SE to use AD. Also realistically you would be at 3 AD by the time you got off one SC. 9 GCD to get off 3 AD if you are weaving in Syphon and not spamming DA AD. With 7 GCDs for an SC. So 312 WAR vs 345 DRK with the potencies you referenced above. Yes you can add in Storm's path but the equivalency diminshes as it is ST based on the number of enemies.

If anything I would like to see BP and BW be usable in any condition. Also BW should be equivalent to Berserk as a Damage buff and not just a timer/tp reduction.

Also make Passenger a TP ability instead of MP and remove the DA requirement.