New info on housing plots, PVP, squadron changes

[Kaethra]

If I do that I end up in a single room which I cannot customize at all, and which does not have an outside garden.

No, that is not the code needed - as soon as you add the possibility to change things in a house the complexity of the code needed goes up considerably.

ORly?

3237953847,2224579,2.540000,-2.000000,8.210000,47.980000,0.000000,0.000000,0.50, false,”Veteran’s Display Case”,

Is the code used for an item in an instance of EQ2 housing.

First number is item ID
Second is Database ID (unique, for indexing purposes on the server)
Next three numbers are the location in X,Z,Y coordinates
Next three after that are the orientation in Rotation, Pitch, and Roll
After those is the size (2.0 is twice as big, .5 is half)
true/false tag determines if the item is in the house's inventory or not
name of item is self explanatory

That's not too complex for ya is it? Why would it be for a SE Dev?

[Rakiria]

ORly?

I'm sorry but... Did you just say you need basically one single line fo code for a whole housing system?

[MistakeNot]

Is the code used for an item in an instance of EQ2 housing.

First number is item ID
Second is Database ID (unique, for indexing purposes on the server)
Next three numbers are the location in X,Z,Y coordinates
Next three after that are the orientation in Rotation, Pitch, and Roll
After those is the size (2.0 is twice as big, .5 is half)
true/false tag determines if the item is in the house's inventory or not
name of item is self explanatory

That's not too complex for ya is it? Why would it be for a SE Dev?

That is merely the data describing a single item in a house. It is not the actual code using that data, nor the database structure needed for handling a large number of such item data over a large number of houses.
Basically, what you showed was just the tip of the iceberg. The other 99.9% of the iceberg is where the actual work happens, and is mostly hidden from us users.

[Kaethra]

That is merely the data describing a single item in a house. It is not the actual code using that data, nor the database structure needed for handling a large number of such item data over a large number of houses.
Basically, what you showed was just the tip of the iceberg. The other 99.9% of the iceberg is where the actual work happens, and is mostly hidden from us users.

Which has largely been done already. The funny thing is, the current wards are instanced by server on the same Datacenter. Instead of instancing by server, instance by player and allow visitation by others.

Oh the other benefit is you can have players own multiple homes this way. I don't understand why you all are so against that. For some reason you don't want someone else to have a home that could be different than yours.

Really?

Which MMO generates entire housing zones that then act as permanent, always on zones, on the fly, that also happen to provide features that essentially have to always be "on" like Chocobo Stables and the Market Board?

Everquest

[MistakeNot]

Which has largely been done already. The funny thing is, the current wards are instanced by server on the same Datacenter. Instead of instancing by server, instance by player and allow visitation by others.

Oh the other benefit is you can have players own multiple homes this way. I don't understand why you all are so against that. For some reason you don't want someone else to have a home that could be different than yours.

I like having wards with multiple houses in them. Per-player instances would lose that, which is why I dislike that solution. Multiple houses per player is only a bad thing when housing is a limited resource.

There is no inherent reason they cannot keep the wards however. Look at LOTRO - pretty much the same setup with houses as we have here, except a much larger number of wards, with new wards getting activated automatically once a certain type of houses are sold out. (Not quite infinite number of wards, or neighbourhoods as they are called in LOTRO, but lots more than we have here.)

Problem is that changing the current setup - and it doesn't really matter in what direction - will involve a lot of work, and quite possibly involve changing things deep down in the messy parts of the code that no sane programmer wants to even touch for fear of breaking things.

[Paladinleeds]

I like having wards with multiple houses in them. Per-player instances would lose that, which is why I dislike that solution.

This is why I'm proposing it in a new housing area. So that for those that want to keep the wards feel to them, have at it, you got it (but be advised it's likely to be more limited). For those who just want a house for their FC for example (for things like airships and gardening), well, that's also an option. But it won't have the ward feeling. I also figured that done this way, they wouldn't have to touch that spaghetti code to try and fix it, and instead just salvage what they can from inn rooms (dynamic generation) and houses (for the decoration side) and smash them together into one new chunk of code. Is it a flawless solution? No. But, given the situation, I don't know what else we can do.

[Berethos]

There is no inherent reason they cannot keep the wards however. Look at LOTRO - pretty much the same setup with houses as we have here, except a much larger number of wards, with new wards getting activated automatically once a certain type of houses are sold out. (Not quite infinite number of wards, or neighbourhoods as they are called in LOTRO, but lots more than we have here.)

I wouldn't say it's the same setup with houses that we have here, given how limited their housing is feature-wise (and in terms of customization, which I remember players asking the devs for freeform item placement and they were told that the impact on the server would be an issue and that's why they went with the hook system that only accepts certain types of items in certain hooks. and the lack of being able to access the auction house from those zones.

Everquest

That's a misleading answer and I think you know that, considering how the Everquest auction system doesn't even work the same way as the one we use.

So again, which EQ housing area features are essentially "always on" type features?

There we go, some ideas on how FFXIV can do, like these other MMOs.

So my question to you was "What other MMO that can dynamically provide new housing areas that works the same way they do in FFXIV?" and your answer was to then suggest that XIV change the way it works so that it can work like other MMOs...

I don't know if you realize this, but you basically just said "No other MMO does it the same way."

Which was my point.

Moving forward, they should absolutely be looking at systems that dynamically scale...but they already mostly do that anyway with FC rooms and apartments (none of those are loaded in until a player access them) and work on figuring out how to get the few features that can't currently be accessed from these non-permanent instanced housing bits (like cross-breeding in gardening...you can already grow stuff, just can't cross-breed) working within those dynamically loading systems (along with providing more size options)...

And from the comments in various interviews, that's likely the kind of stuff they'll be looking at after 4.2 anyway.

[Paladinleeds]

character limit... something else that needs removing...

So my question to you was "What other MMO that can dynamically provide new housing areas that works the same way they do in FFXIV?" and your answer was to then suggest that XIV change the way it works so that it can work like other MMOs...

I don't know if you realize this, but you basically just said "No other MMO does it the same way."

Which was my point.

Moving forward, they should absolutely be looking at systems that dynamically scale...but they already mostly do that anyway with FC rooms and apartments (none of those are loaded in until a player access them) and work on figuring out how to get the few features that can't currently be accessed from these non-permanent instanced housing bits (like cross-breeding in gardening...you can already grow stuff, just can't cross-breed) working within those dynamically loading systems (along with providing more size options)...

And from the comments in various interviews, that's likely the kind of stuff they'll be looking at after 4.2 anyway.

That was an intentional dodge of the question because I haven't researched every single MMORPG out there. The ones I know of don't do it. And I am not willing to research every single MMORPG in existence (I'm already busy dealing with simulation games, to try and help improve my dexterity).

Anyways, back to the crux of my post. Rather that looking at what other MMORPG does it and carbon copy it, why don't we focus on making it the first to do it? Why does everything have to be something a previous MMORPG has done? I agree, my previous posts were so badly phrased and factually incorrect it's worthy of a permanent ban without appeal from the game and forums (as well as Square Enix suing me for $500 octodecillion, and being permanently banned from every game in the world past/present/future, whether single player or multiplayer, without appeal) and I apologise for that false statement, but that was borne out of frustration of seeing other games seemingly get it right (for example LOTRO has wards that dynamically generate, WildStar with its instanced housing, etc), and yet all we get is constantly told "Technical limitations". That being said, when you say "What other MMORPG does this?", that's how other people will see it, even though it was basically a natural response to the way I'd phrased the quoted post you were responding to.

Frankly, hearing "technical limitations" all the time is deflating and gives off the feeling of "Well what on earth are they doing?", and while I have done software development in the past myself (though not to a level anywhere near as advanced as FFXIV) and can understand the nightmares of "spaghetti code", it's definitely something worth investing in. Isn't this part of the reason why we dropped the PS3 for example, to help move the game forward? It's why I put forward ideas on how to progress it and make it work. Housing continues to become a bigger and bigger thorn in the playerbase's side. There has to be a way to do it, it's why I suggested ideas on how to move forward, making use of existing infrastructure where we could, and putting it forward. Players don't see the intricate limitations in the other games, all they see is "Well, they can do it, why can't FFXIV?", and frankly, I sometimes feel that way too, despite having dabbled in software dev myself (having taken the approach that anything can be done if you try hard enough. With my code, that means it must be perfect even at the expense of my own physical/mental health, health is secondary to perfect code. Yes, that contributed to me losing my last job because I did essentially destroy my mental health with the standards I set. They've been ingrained for 10+ years, I'm not able to simply shake them off.).

The problem is, FC rooms and apartments don't give access to the workshop, which is why we need an instanced housing solution for FCs. Not to mention FCs cannot buy apartments anyway. Right now, the solution basically gives FCs with large houses a huge advantage. There's no large plots available (and from what I've seen on Louisoix, nobody is willing to sell any large plots for any price). Without a large house, there are limits on things like "How many gardening areas can you have?", "How many crafting facilities can you have out at once?" (speaking of those facilities, they need upgrading, but that's a separate topic I will tackle at a later date). If nobody is willing to sell a large house (and let's be fair, the grey area with the ToS will put people off), then these FCs without them, are suddenly put at a disadvantage that they have no hope of fixing unless they get lucky. Indeed, on most realms, all housing is taken up already. The solutions SE put in like what we believe to be a lottery system on housing to prevent it being simply "Who can get here first?" when the servers come back up feel like meaningless gestures to the greater problem of lack of supply. I think it's understandable that people are getting tired of it.

The problem is, SE don't want to lift those limits on smaller houses, because it then loses the appeal of a large house. And I can understand that in a way, but something really needs to be done about it. Perhaps keeping the lower item limits would be enough? I don't know. That's why people peddle the need for instanced housing. Because these extra wards are simply an almost useless band-aid to the problem at hand (in the grand scheme of things anyway). It's why they peddle for account limitations (not just character limitations). SE adding a few more wards is just a band-aid fix that lasts all of about 15 minutes. It's not fixing the core of the issue.

[Kaethra]

I like having wards with multiple houses in them. Per-player instances would lose that, which is why I dislike that solution. Multiple houses per player is only a bad thing when housing is a limited resource.

I suggested keeping the old system alongside a new one.

The only reason you'd be opposed to that is you don't want people to have housing.

[Krotoan]

ORly?



Is the code used for an item in an instance of EQ2 housing.

.....

OK, cool. How does the housing system in FFXIV work? If you know I'd love to hear it, because some transparency on how it gets implemented and why there might be some limitations on their side or a LACK of limitations would be a great argument to petition for simple improvements. If not.. how do you know it's anywhere near what EQ uses and how easy it is to put through?