healers are to OP in rival wings

[Zojha]

A very skilled NIN or any 2 dps can do it if they fight smart.

You mean if the healer is a very, very terrible player?

Let's put this claim to the test. For the sake of the calculation, we'll give the Ninja every advantage in the book. They get to use Aeolian Edge "and" Assassinate during Kakuremi and still get 100 Ninki, the healer doesn't care for CC, doesn't use concentrate or anything and doesn't even bother to pre-shield/HoT, start to heal early or even move. And even though it's not realistic, the healer has Shadowfang on him already because our ninja is just so skilled that it applied itself automatically before he entered the scene. And assassinate always does the full 2500 pot as well. Our Ninja is further so skilled that he needs no combo steps to use Aeolian Edge. He has no latency either - He can weave Three Mudras with another ability.

You're now looking at a burst of: 1500 (AE) + 2500 (Assa) + 2500 (Bhava)/7865-2,3 seconds/ + 1500 (AE) + 1500 (Raiton) + 500 (JUG)/13350-4,6 seconds (stun ends here, tided over with Silence)/ + 1500 (AE) + 750 (Mug)/14822,5. Congratulations, that last bit is where the healer would have died if he didn't prepare anything, didn't mash an OGCD at the end of the stun AND you used a cheat engine all along. I already calculated in the damage boost from assassinate and shadow fang as well as their DoT damage for the lulz.

I fear most ninjas simply aren't as "skilled".

Can i get an explanation as to why you think a dps (especially one playing like a fool) should be able to solo kill someone whos job description is "health restoration?"

The job description of a DPS is "damage dealing", which directly runs counter to "damage restoration". By nature, the two are balanced if one directly cancels the other given equal skill. That's intuitive, no? If one is plus and one is minus, then the sum is zero if both numbers and their speed of delivery are the same.
Where Khalitar is wrong is that a healer should die to one DPS eventually - the ideal is that the matchup ends in a perpetual deadlock given equal skill and if either party gets more skilled than the other, they should win, either because the DPS is wittling down the healer or because the healer can weave in some DPS skills with free resources. That's the case of DPS more skilled/healer more skilled respectively.

[Commander_Justitia]

Why not create PvP topics in the PvP forum as PvP players will look there and tell you why healers can't be nerfed so that they die by 1 damage dealer.

You just want to win the round in Rival Wings, if you have 100 kills less than the other group doesn't mean anything. You don't need the generator, you don't need to zerg 10min against 3 healer.
I like how this topic was nowhere to be found until rival wings happenend, healers were always like this since the pvp revamp. I see a lot of lost games because people try to deliberately try to kill healer instead of doing the objectives.

[Zojha]

I like how this topic was nowhere to be found until rival wings happenend, healers were always like this since the pvp revamp.

The PvP community finally got what it asked for: More direct PvP instead of just hitting the Ice in a mode. Now people have to actually fight *players* in the generator, the caves below or at the ceruleum in the north and suddenly the imbalances shine.

Maybe more dummy objectives for PvP in the future again? Seems to be a valid solution to at least quieten people.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Maybe more dummy objectives for PvP in the future again? Seems to be a valid solution to at least quieten people.

No, we don't want that at all. There's already a bit too little "versus Player" in PvP.

Healers aren't quite the issue as much as the Soaring buff, though I will say a healers ability to heal through damage was offset by dealing very little themselves before. Right now, even before Soaring, a healer is basically a DPS that can sustain itself through a skirmish, at least until they run out of MP. Restoration tanks, basically.

The Soaring buff, which they don't have to directly get themselves is where the scales get tipped. Less damage taken, more dealt, and more healed, up to 20% becomes pretty absurd pretty fast. That might be the starting point for adjustments.

[Marcellus_Cassius]

Dunno, heals dps is crap, they can't kill anything fast enough, just don't expect to kill them quickly either

[Sylvina]

If anything we dont need to nerf healers, we need a reason to have more DPS present in Rival wings, so people don't just stack healers. Healers are fine.

[RiyahArp]

Why not create PvP topics in the PvP forum as PvP players will look there and tell you why healers can't be nerfed so that they die by 1 damage dealer.

There's a dilemma though. If a healer can be killed by one damage dealer, why would you want to be a healer? You couldn't heal effectively, because the DPS could just rush you and kill you first in any situation. Might as well just go DPS, because you cannot rely on others to protect you. It's not an easy question to answer, and you still have the problem of heal stacking.

[Khalithar]

Can i get an explanation as to why you think a dps (especially one playing like a fool) should be able to solo kill someone whos job description is "health restoration?"

Your question doesn't work because it can be countered with "why do you think you should be able to survive against someone whose job description is kill things?' So I'm not going to bother going at that point because that debate is endless, instead I will address a different aspect of it. It's the misconception that by saying "hey I think a healer should be able to be killed eventually" is that I'm somehow suggesting a dps can just hit whatever buttons they want and kill a healer.

That is not the case, my point ultimately is that a dps using all their cooldowns and doing their dps rotation optimally against a healer that's only healing and not kiting, line of sighting, or trying to get away is that yes, they should go down eventually. Now what is a reasonable amount of time for that to happen? I don't know, but it isn't "in one damage rotation" and most certainly isn't "never" either.

I have to disagree with Zojha in that there should never be a stalemate and people need to be able to be killed in PVP, creating situations where a team with more healers are basically immortal should NEVER happen in any pvp situation, ever. But I did want to address another issue which I believe is a common misconception.

If a healer can be killed by one damage dealer, why would you want to be a healer? You couldn't heal effectively, because the DPS could just rush you and kill you first in any situation. Might as well just go DPS, because you cannot rely on others to protect you. It's not an easy question to answer, and you still have the problem of heal stacking.

Well assuming you mean one lone dps, the idea is that if you are caught alone (which you shouldn't be as a healer) then you should be able to keep yourself alive long enough to get back to your team for support. But if you just stay there and don't flee, then yes you as a healer should be killed eventually. If you're saying a group of DPS rush you and jump on you and you die quickly, one you should be at the far back so that they can't get to you, two you should be actively line of sighting against ranged targets while popping out to heal, and three you be ready to flee if the situation goes badly. If you're standing out in the front and 4-5 players jump on you at once? Then yes, I think you should die just as quickly as any non-healer does.

Saying healing should be weaker even if a lone dps can solo them wouldn't negate the healing role, a team with healers will still have more longevity, defenses, and be harder to kill and you'll still be better off with them than without them. But at the same time, they won't be impossible to kill. It also means that the teams need to take a more active role in protecting their healer rather than being able to safely ignore the 1-2 dps wailing on their healer because the dps won't be able to kill them. Also no, other players being bad i.e. not protecting you and attacking the people on you, doesn't mean healers need to be as strong as they are, it means other players need to pay attention and guard the one keeping them in the fight longer.

[Zojha]

There's a dilemma though. If a healer can be killed by one damage dealer, why would you want to be a healer?

Flavor? Preference?

The whole point of balance is that there is "no" point in playing something over something else and you can pick entirely by your own preference - So you don't bring a Ninja over a Samurai to the Raid because his Raid Contribution is higher, but because you simply prefer Ninja. That's the point of balancing, in PvE, PvP and elsewhere.
Hence, the ideal is that a healer can beat a DPS if they're more skilled, the DPS can beat a healer if they're more skilled and the match results in a deadlock if both are equally skilled until either party gets help or gets more skilled, because then role/job doesn't matter, only skill does. If the healer would die by default against a less skilled DPS even, then there would truly be no point in playing a healer, because then they'd be underpowered.

That ideal works even in a team scenario - If you have 2 DPS on one team and a DPS and a healer on the other (equal skill among all assumed), the healer and one DPS cancel out and it basically becomes a match of one DPS vs one DPS, which is balanced so long as the DPS are balanced. Thus, both teams would lose a player at the same time, which is a very balanced result. And if the healer gets more skilled, then they can delay the death slightly longer and their team gain an advantage. If either DPS gets more skilled, the person on the other team dies slightly faster and that team gains an advantage. The end result purely depends on skill, not roles or jobs. That is balance.
If you, or maybe a tank, then stun the healer for 2 seconds, the damage advantage you gain equals 2 seconds damage of one DPS. If you stun one DPS for two seconds, they lose 2 seconds damage of one DPS, the same thing you gained by stunning the healer. If there's a tank on both teams and they both stun the respective target at the same time, it's a zero sum game again, it's balanced.

You can twist and turn that into multiple scenarios - it always ends up the same, in balance. And in healers being rather unfun to play - But that's intrinsic in healer design and not a reason to make them overpowered.

The cool thing about balance is that you can speed up queues tremendously, because you can remove any and all role and job locks. That's a neat side effect. If things aren't balanced, then you need role or worse, job locks - Any team is balanced with another team if both sides have identical jobs. You can literally put in random numbers between one and ten thousand for the potencies with a job lock, it doesn't matter at that point, as both teams 'will' have the same amount of total power and a role lock is a lesser version of that. The distribution of power within the team will just be heavily skewed with either. Which isn't so bad if people can bear the current state I suppose, because that is already the case.

[dotsforlife]

I can't kill a healer by myself = Healer OP

Pretty much the gist of this thread.