Jobs growth past lvl70?!

[Gemina]

I'm not the biggest fan of stance dancing. At least not the way it is now with swapping offense for defense. Healers losing Cleric was godsend.

Now, the way you describe where you are trading one offense for another, I think would flow a lot better. The same idea could work defensively as well giving tanks a true parry stance. However, I am not sure how this would reduce/prevent button bloat. Actually sounds like more would be added to pull this off.

I really like what they've done with abilities like Stone Mastery and Broil Mastery. I think they could implement this with current abilities and upgrade them in the same fashion. As an example DRKs Carve and Spit can upgrade from a three-fold attack to a five-fold attack at level 72. This would allow them to add two animations to the existing ability without adding an additional ability to put on your hotbar.

[kikix12]

Personally, I don't see ability 'bloat' as a problem. Large numbers of abilities with niche uses translates to complexity and depth; it encourages spending time truly mastering a job, rather than finding the optimal rotation with a quick Google search and repeating ad nauseum.

I find button bloat a problem, but ability bloat, no. However, what we have is purely button bloat.

If there are more abilities than at most three bars, even with a keyboard there is a massive issue on how to hotkey them. There's only so many keys you can have "within range" for comfortable use during battle. And forcing a use of mouse is absolutely unacceptable, since it's too slow and erratic.
Then there are the console players. They should not be crippled by the amount of abilities.

Now, if there was ability bloat and you had to choose a certain amount of them, not being able to use others (something like Role Abilities on jobs, but for ALL abilities), then that would promote in-depth knowledge of the class and the fight, while not causing the issues described.

Kinda don't want to go back to stances. I'm really liking them removing some of the bloat, though not all of it. Ninja poison affected what Jugulate did and you had to make sure you put either of them on in the first place and sometimes I forgot to turn cleric off when healing or dpsing with cleric not even on.

Cleric stance was a horrid mechanic. I'm not advocating a stance that seals the characters capabilities like that, but something that gives unique options. It would be most similar to how warrior works. Except the stances would both have bonuses that increase dps/survival/healing, just in a different way, so as to not have them compete with each other like it is with tank and dps stances on tanks currently.

And at that point, sorry, but someone forgetting the stance they are on when it's probably going to change a lot in the battle is a sign of requiring more experience, and there's nothing wrong with that. Then again, no matter the mess-up, you would get something in return, unlike you did with Cleric Stance.

However, I am not sure how this would reduce/prevent button bloat. Actually sounds like more would be added to pull this off.

It would help the bloat. It would increase the amount of abilities to memorize, but not increase button bloat (beyond the initial slots, assuming that old skills would not be changed to adapt).

Let's make an example. There is a random job, let's say healer. His current skills would not be changed to add to the stance system, so whatever 27 skills, let's say, it have, it keeps. There is a limit of 36 skills on three hot bars, but you may want two or three slots free at least for other stuff, without having to switch hotbars. That means you are left with a whooping 6 skills that can be added. They can be added straightforward, and that's all you get. Six skills.
Or they can be added like this:

1) Speed Stance: Increase cast time and spells recast time by X.
2) Power Stance: Increase healing and damage done by spells by Y.

3)a) Heal targets in a radius of 15 yards around the target with a potency of 300. Instant-cast, 10sec cooldown. Only usable in Speed Stance.
b) Heal target with a potency of 800. Puts a regen effect with a potency of 100 for 9sec. 2sec cast, 30sec cooldown. Only usable in Power Stance.
c) Heal targets in a radius of 8 yards around the target with a potency of 500 and place a regen with a potency of 70 for 9sec on them. 2sec cast, 30sec cooldown. Only usable when no stance is active.

4) a) Remove a single detrimental effect from all allies within a 15yard radius. 1sec cast, 20sec cooldown. Only usable in Speed Stance.
b) Place a shield on target that will cancel the next two curable debuffs on the target. 1sec cast, 20sec cooldown. Only usable in Power Stance.
c) Remove up to two detrimental effects from target ally. 1sec cast, 20sec cooldown. Only usable when no stance is active.

5) a) Place a shield on target that reduces damage dealt to him by 5% for 10sec. 2sec cast, 30sec cooldown. Only usable in Speed Stance.
b) Place a shield on target that absorbs damage equal to 10% of that targets max HP then disappears. Duration, 30sec. 2sec cast, 60sec cooldown. Only usable in Power Stance.
c) Place a shield on target that reduces damage the next attack deals to them by 50%. 1sec cast, 60sec cooldown. Only usable when no stance is active.

6) a) Deal damage with a potency of 150 to target and all enemies in a 10yard radius. 2sec cast, 2,5sec cooldown. Only usable in Speed Stance.
b) Deal damage with a potency of 400 to target and slow them for 3sec. If cast on a slowed enemy, deals 50 potency damage for 15sec. 2sec cast, 2,5 cooldown. Only usable in Power Stance.
c) Deal damage with a potency of 200 to target and all enemies in a 5yard radius and slow them for 6sec. 2sec cast time, 30sec cooldown. Only usable when no stance is active.

As you can see, you need six (two stances and four skills) buttons for a total of 12 abilities plus 2 stances. That is twice as many abilities, plus stances that still have their bonuses which can be chosen for currently existing skills, which can be used with any stance. The amount of skills "saved" would just grow with every further universal skill or added stance (though three stances is the maximum one should have, I guess).

[Sylvina]

With new expansion, most people expect level increase (which, one should be honest with themselves, is pretty much guaranteed). With that comes the "growth" of jobs. New options to be had. However, button bloat is a thing.

How can it be solved?! Hypothesize, suggest, share your hopes/opinions away.

I think having some skills become higher level versions of the skill automatically like they did for some classes for stormblood is probably the way to go. and maybe limited skill trees. there comes a point where they add so many skills the game becomes impossible to play and that point is close.

[Joe777]

If they treat combos the way they do in PvP that would be a way to reduce button bloat. I'm sure they'd "trim the fat" if it got too big again though.

[Sylvina]

If they treat combos the way they do in PvP that would be a way to reduce button bloat. I'm sure they'd "trim the fat" if it got too big again though.

I consider making combos one button like in pvp one method of trimming the fat. you're trimming the amount of buttons required to play the game. Most people don't ever press their combos out of order, so it's not like you'll lose much by only being able to execute them the way they're intended.

[Vexander]

I agree with Sylvina. If they made it possible for combo chains to be put into PvE as in PvP, it'd help reduce button bloat considerably for classes that work off of combo's. After that it really is just a matter of upgrading existing skills. I think a lot of Utility Skills could also be trimmed or combined. For example, Black Mage has Sleep and Lethargy. Why not combine the two so that when the target wakes up, the effects of Lethargy automatically apply? Something similar was done with Mana Ward and Mana Barrier, and I think it worked out well for Black Mages.

[Joe777]

I consider making combos one button like in pvp one method of trimming the fat. you're trimming the amount of buttons required to play the game. Most people don't ever press their combos out of order, so it's not like you'll lose much by only being able to execute them the way they're intended.

What I meant by "fat" is the lesser-used skills, ie Fluid Aura. Then again, I suppose people would just not slot it lol

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Most people don't ever press their combos out of order, so it's not like you'll lose much by only being able to execute them the way they're intended.

My people have suffered enough. Leave us be.

[kikix12]

My people have suffered enough. Leave us be.

Don't think about it as suffering again, but as a new opportunity for the better tomorrow?!...Keh.

Well, one way or another, they will try to trim the skills. I don't believe they would not give skills at 71-80 stretch, because there would be pretty much no character growth at those levels then. And the amount of raves they'd get from that, where the only difference between lvl70 and lvl80 would be in the gear, far outweighs any possible (not necessarily guaranteed) complaints about this or that suggestion that involves new skills. Sure, one could say that traits that switch old versions of skills with new ones are a way to eat a cake and have a cake...but I say that the cake is a lie. Cause lets be honest, when I get an upgrade to a skill, I don't think "Cool! New skill!" but "Alright, so it's called differently, but what is new about it?". Really, if we have access to a new tier of skill, the mobs HP is just increased accordingly. And the older content is still synced down, so you cannot SEE that increased skill level in it. In reality, nothing at all changes.

Hence why I suggested the stances with their option of keeping everything, while giving something new, by making a single button count as more than one, give more options. Actual options, that change something.

[Sylvina]

My people have suffered enough. Leave us be.

But if they changed machinist so that pressing the combo out of order wasn't required anymore that would be a positive thing no?