Is EX/Savage content a battle or a dance number?

[Xerek]

Read the entire comment?

And have you done ShinryuEX yet? Stop ducking the question

You duck my post, then call me out on ducking your question. Certain level of chutzpuh there, but hey. I've gotten to Phase 2 on Shinny-Ex. And though it's tougher then O1S and O2S, I actually enjoy it a bit more. Far more of the mechanics are countered by abilities then dance steps. And that is, as I've noted repeatedly, the issue I have with Savage.

As for a different reply, plain and simple, are you telling me there are signifigantly fewer dance-step mechanics in O3S then in the two prior? If not, I don't have to play it to know it won't be fun (for me). Why should I waste my time learning dance steps if I already know I hate dancing?

[Aramina]

The issue is in feeling like I'm dancing more then fighting. It comes down to two kinds of mechanics. You have attacks like Twin Bolt, where you have damage that needs to mitigated, barriered and healed. This type of mechanic is countered by class abilities. These are the type I enjoy. The second type are mechanics that are countered solely by movement/positioning, such as Classical Elements. This type are the ones I refer to as dance steps. I feel there are far too many of the latter, making it feel more like a choreographed dance then a proper fight. And as such, it really doesn't feel fun.

Pardon me for condensing, but since I get you I will try:

TLDR: OP feels there are too many (or at least too frequently recurring) role agnostic mechanics. For his own personal enjoyment, he wishes there were less of these but understands that the masses prefer these.

[Dualgunner]

This almost perfectly describes almaghests and allagan fields in o4s, library phase in o3s, and many, many parts of ultimate coil.

I would almost want to say White Hole as well. Although the challenge of White Hole's healing check is often that people have been moving around to avoid Black Holes/get back into healing range and could be considered a "dance"; though the challenge of the heal check there is making sure everybody has the regens needed to survive several gcds of no heals in which they'll take a Fire III doing ~50% of their HP pool, followed by a stack mechanic, then getting everybody topped up to avoid anyone instantly dying or being paralyzed.

I can't really think of any game in which the fight isn't a dance of some stripe offhand. Maybe provide some examples of games / fights that have combat mechanics you do like?

[Miste]

Please see prior comment, repeated multiple times now, that states my views have nothing to do with difficulty! Consequently, how hard or easy O1S and O2S are, are irrelevent. How else can I spell this out? >.<

You know this whole topic you posted you have been 100% close minded to anyone who points out possible flaws in your point of view and also close minded to anything that doesn't fit in exactly with your point of view.

People have time and time again pointed out that you are basing your entire opinion of Savage only on half the turns, and that your perspective is skewed due to only trying these fights after everyone is mostly over geared for them. This is technically kind of flawed since you didn't even try the turns that get substantially more difficult. In general if difficulty goes up then healing difficulty and necessity also goes up and you keep saying you want to use your healing skills more right?

Difficulty does matter if you are talking about savage as a whole and when you speak of wanting to utilize your healing skills well the difficulty of the fight is in direct relation to how hard you have to heal as well. Also Sebazy mentioned item level which I also mentioned pages ago because you are looking for more of a challenge for your "healing skills", but you are over geared for O1S and O2S.

Remember how I mentioned that O2S at minimum item level when I did it at release of it Gravitational Wave would one shot people even if they had full HP? You needed healer shields and mitigation, you needed quick healing due to multiple Gravitational Waves in succession.

You keep going on and on about "difficulty isn't the problem", but it actually kind of is because when you over gear something healers need to do less and less healing which you said is part of your issue with it that you don't need to do enough healing IE: your favoured mechanics of role reaction instead of movement/placement. As everyone over gears a fight by a large margin it trivializes the mechanics you prefer: role countered ones.

This also makes sense when you figure you apparently like Shin EX even though it has quite a lot of "dance steps" as well, but the thing is no one is over geared by a large margin for Shin EX yet since it was released later in the tier so the healing uptime required is higher than O1S and O2S even for someone around i340.

[Sebazy]

You duck my post, then call me out on ducking your question.

I haven't ducked a thing thank you very much.

Re Shinryu, that's precisely what I wanted to hear TBH, thanks for finally getting there =P

The reason I ask is because as you state, O1S and O2S are very much memorisation checks, there's very little variation, you just need to know where to stand and what to click when <insert ability here> happens. By comparison, Shinryu is an awareness test in my eyes, the mechanics are actually pretty simple, but it rolls the dice and throws a bunch of them at you at once. Lots of variation, stuff comes at you from different angles and positions. It's a great encounter and has earned a spot alongside Thordan EX as one of my favourite primals to date.

O3S falls somewhere in between TBH. It's still a dance, you're not going to get away from that in Savage, but there's a lot more variance particularly in the later half of the encounter. Like Shinryu it also has some RNG that will potentially trap you if you're not alert enough. It's a good fun fight and I'd argue it's the best Omega turn this tier. Do I think you'd enjoy it more than Shinryu? Until the final phase, no probably not. But that last phase is worth it imho.

[Xerek]

Several of you still don't understand the distinction. Thank you to those of you who do, and who have tried also to explain. I'm giving up, and backing out of this thread. I have done everything in my power to explain what I dislike, and it just isn't registering with some people. As soon as difficulty or iLvl is mentioned, I know they don't understand. And I've run out of ways to explain it. That aside, my first O1S clear was ten weeks ago, trust me, I wasn't in i330+ gear back then. My issue stems with an overabundance of mechanics that are not overcome through any class skill or ability.

I don't have to play O3S. The fight's scripted. If I were so inclined I could list every such mechanic in O3S complete with timestamps. You maintain I won't hate all of those mechanics because the rest is better? Sorry. I don't like tomato on my burger. I don't care how much better the next burger is, if there is a slice of the red on it, and I can clearly taste it, I am going to hate it.

But...I'm wasting my breath. Godspeed, and happy gaming.

[Xerek]

Pardon me for condensing, but since I get you I will try:

TLDR: OP feels there are too many (or at least too frequently recurring) role agnostic mechanics. For his own personal enjoyment, he wishes there were less of these but understands that the masses prefer these.

That sums it up perfectly.

[HyoMinPark]

Please see prior comment, repeated multiple times now, that states my views have nothing to do with difficulty! Consequently, how hard or easy O1S and O2S are, are irrelevent. How else can I spell this out? >.<

What Sebazy is saying, is that you are trying to judge Savage as a whole by only doing the easiest two floors of Savage in the easiest tier that this game has ever seen; you’re trying to say that all of Savage is boring dance-offs based only off of your perspective of two fights that have no business calling themselves Savage (seriously, my first static was not the best and we still downed Alte Rolte in a couple hours; world firsts downed him on the first pull...he’s a joke). And that is why everyone keeps telling you to go do V3S and V4S (and not just watch a video), and then come back and have a discussion about the current state of Savage content.

If you still find Savage “boring” or not for you after doing V3S and V4S, then that’s fine. You’ll have a better ground to stand on for your arguments and opinions. But, as it stands right now, you don’t have much ground because V1S and V2S are a joke.

Remove the “dance steps” from Savage and they just become striking dummies; which is incredibly boring. You ask for more job/role specific mechanics (more tankbusters, more healing checks, the like), but you’re doing V1S (which is V1N with no walls and an extra 0 at the end of Alte Rolte’s HP) and V2S (where Catastrophe is only slightly different from his normal mode version...he tickles a bit harder). You haven’t stepped into V3S which is a major jump in everything compared to the first two, or V4S which is an extremely fun fight, and a lot of people’s favorite in this tier (I love Neo, to be honest). V3S and V4S have some of the things you appear to want (things along the lines of healing checks where you need to pre-cast shields/heals—things you should already be doing for all types of tankbusters and AOE damage, but V3S and V4S has more of it), but you’re unwilling to try them because you found V3S “mindnumbingly boring” based on a video. Try wiping get to the fight for a couple hours, and you probably won’t find it boring anymore.

People are just asking you to try rather than continue to just make blanket generalizations about the content as a whole. It’s fine if you find V1S and V2S boring—lots of people do. But to just brush off the rest of Savage based on two embarrassments of Savage fights is not right.

EDIT: Saying that you “don’t need to do V3S” because “it’s scripted” will just further invalidate your arguments. You aren’t willing to even try and see the actual Savage content in this game. So please, stop making sweeping judgements about the content as a whole when you can’t even give yourself an adequate background on it.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

That sums it up perfectly.

In otherwise... target dummies that require little more than class awareness to overcome. As Sebazy mentioned, A4S somewhat attempts this by simply throwing extremely high volumes of damage and demanding just as much to kill. Not only is it widely disliked, but frequently credited as the actual reason people despised Gordias. There simply isn't a means to make shielding, DoTs, HoT and etc engaging over a 6-14 minute duration across multiple fights. At this point, Savage just isn't for you and there isn't much discussion to be had.

[MeridaQ]

Sorry, but the only one who doesn't understand is you. Miste pointed out that you are the one who is closed minded and I agree with her. You have jumped between saying you want more randomized mechanics to more class based mechanics. If you want to make a point stick with it otherwise the responses are going to be varied. When I responded earlier about your desire for more random mechanics you didn't respond. As for your second point the idea that you want less positional mechanics and more class based mechanics. That is literally every fight, the first two savages are tuned extremely low as an entry into savage. There are only a few previous savages that I would say are as boring. (A9S)

If you want a fight that is fun and engaging run V3S it is the best of the current content for enjoyment sake. There you can actually put your skills to use, Tank buster hits for about 70k unmitigated, auto attacks crit for 20k, dimensional wave does about 15k to everyone, the fire3/thunder/blizzard and spellblade holy followed by dimensional wave is a b for healers. Those are the kinds of checks you are interested in, instead of complaining go and try it. If you are so unwilling to try the content, don't complain about it. Also you keep saying this fight is scripted yadda yadda, if you want to do the fights with real skill and reactions. Don't read a guide learn through doing it, of course everything is scripted it is a program. That is how programs work you plug in this input and it outputs a set of possible commands. Everything that you asked for really starts at every third fight in savage, open your mind up and do them. I did the first 3 fights without any guides because it is fun learning, I would suggest you try that for once.