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  1. #1
    Player
    Crater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    399
    Character
    Jade Nixx
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 90
    Unfortunately, no, I don't think those changes would do much to solve some of the underlying tank balance issues.

    First, Paladin damage just isn't really a problem. They do good damage, but they never really burst particularly high, and they're a slave to multiple cooldown timers. The issues with balance re: tank damage are, basically: 1) DRK isn't performing up to scratch - low maximum damage, low average damage, optimization is the hardest among the tanks but the reward for optimizing is a fraction of what you get by optimizing the others, etc, and 2) WAR is being over-rewarded, as per usual, by having both the highest burst damage and the highest total DPS.

    Second, Dark Dance was basically a useful cooldown in conjunction with the rest of DRK's 3.x toolkit. Pairing it with Foresight for 'fluff' physical mitigation is gone, using it to proc Reprisal is gone, DADD+DADP was extremely expensive MP-wise even when Blood Price was literally 4x as strong as it is now and DP cost half the MP; now it would basically be nonviable even if it were replaced exactly as-is. And wasting a DA worth of MP on Dark Mind is already generally a losing move, and that's with an actual powerful effect - tacking the same cost on to anything short of a 100% chance to parry would honestly be pretty irrelevant.
    (8)

  2. #2
    Player
    konpachizaraki's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    173
    Character
    Grandfall Fraxinus
    World
    Tonberry
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Crater View Post
    Unfortunately, no, I don't think those changes would do much to solve some of the underlying tank balance issues.
    WAR is being over-rewarded, as per usual, by having both the highest burst damage and the highest total DPS.
    disagree on WAR being over rewarded for their dps, if anything it's the opposite because their best burst damage only come once every two minutes,can easily get messed up by mechanic and PLD can match WAR DPS without needing to give as much effort.
    inner release should be a 1 minute cooldown, or if they decide to keep the 2 minutes cooldown it should at least increase the fell cleave damage significantly on that duration
    (1)
    Last edited by konpachizaraki; 11-26-2017 at 11:43 PM.

  3. #3
    Player
    Marxam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    2,284
    Character
    Blackiron Tarkus
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Crater View Post
    2) WAR is being over-rewarded, as per usual, by having both the highest burst damage and the highest total DPS.
    That's debatable. While war burst is good its the overall raiddps that counts. As a WAR main, the change to SiO is good however we still have to juggle Infuriate timers and match them perfectly with Berserk and Inner Release to even get a chance at matching or even exceeding pld. PLD just needs to keep goring up and use its off gcds when available and its gg. If there is one thing I would change about DRK is to make TBN six seconds instead of five. I find this to a reasonable change. Other than that SE doesn't see anything wrong with DRK. I mean world first UBcoB had a drk in it.
    (0)

  4. #4
    Player
    Chrono_Rising's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    922
    Character
    Gulvioir Muruc
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Marxam View Post
    That's debatable. While war burst is good its the overall raiddps that counts. As a WAR main, the change to SiO is good however we still have to juggle Infuriate timers and match them perfectly with Berserk and Inner Release to even get a chance at matching or even exceeding pld. PLD just needs to keep goring up and use its off gcds when available and its gg. If there is one thing I would change about DRK is to make TBN six seconds instead of five. I find this to a reasonable change. Other than that SE doesn't see anything wrong with DRK. I mean world first UBcoB had a drk in it.
    The world first may have had a dark in it, but only about 3 confirmed dark knights have cleared compared to 22 Warriors and 25 paladins. World first doesn't mean much as a metric, and most groups seem to be choosing warrior paladin to run and clear. This doesn't seem to strictly be a theoretical argument, strategically people are bringing in a certain composition, and it doesn't appear that most groups are choosing dark knight as part of that strategy. Not shockingly, there doesn't appear to be many of places where a 5.5k shield on one person would save the raid.

    I cannot stress this enough, it is too small a sample to draw any conclusions from, but right now dark knight is behind in the numbers game by 20% dps in ultimate. This could be because of playing cautiously paired with an extremely small sample set, but many have pointed out harder content could force more tank stance on dark because its kit is weaker than the other tanks. If that holds up, again really too small a sample to generalize from, that is a way more important metric than which tank was brought in first.
    (2)
    Last edited by Chrono_Rising; 11-27-2017 at 01:21 PM.

  5. #5
    Player
    Crater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    399
    Character
    Jade Nixx
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Marxam View Post
    That's debatable. While war burst is good its the overall raiddps that counts.
    No. Burst is utility; it has value beyond just contributing to overall DPS, and class balance should reflect that. The class that deals the highest burst damage should never be the class that also deals the highest overall DPS, and this game is going to have severe balance issues until SE realizes that and starts changing class design accordingly. Both Paladin and Dark Knight should be dealing higher overall DPS than Warrior, to balance out the fact that Berserk + Fell Cleave is always going to result in Warrior dealing 30-40%+ more damage during a burst window.
    (3)

  6. #6
    Player
    FallenWings's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    520
    Character
    Xyasreau Borlaaq
    World
    Tonberry
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Crater View Post
    No. Burst is utility; it has value beyond just contributing to overall DPS, and class balance should reflect that. The class that deals the highest burst damage should never be the class that also deals the highest overall DPS, and this game is going to have severe balance issues until SE realizes that and starts changing class design accordingly. Both Paladin and Dark Knight should be dealing higher overall DPS than Warrior, to balance out the fact that Berserk + Fell Cleave is always going to result in Warrior dealing 30-40%+ more damage during a burst window.
    Burst type damage is always going to be king over stable. But other than phase pushing(which the DPS classes have more influence in than WARs slight edge over the other tanks has), 'balanced' content design is never going to make a burst phase where only WAR can handle it versus a PLD or DRK, both of which are also capable of 'bursting' but agreeably not to the degree of a Berserk/IR window. It's a flavour of damage type for the most part and is of little consequence because its not that big of a gap between the other tanks.

    WAR just needs to not have all its eggs in Inner Release. 2 minutes of pool noodle damage for 20 seconds of chainsaw damage is not all that fun.
    (2)

  7. #7
    Player
    Eyvhokan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    200
    Character
    Eyvhokan Poseidal
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    Miner Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by FallenWings View Post
    WAR just needs to not have all its eggs in Inner Release. 2 minutes of pool noodle damage for 20 seconds of chainsaw damage is not all that fun.
    Inner release was a mistake?
    (0)