It's past time, Yoshi-P...

[RiyahArp]

That's not very logical: wouldn't parsing the incoming damage of current SB dungeons and separating the bosses from the trash back up exactly what you were saying: trash hits harder now, bosses still not so much?

You don't need to parse that. You can eyeball it. But stats like 87% uptime have to be put in context of what happens in the dungeon, not just trotted out like they solve arguments.

[Taika]

You don't need to parse that. You can eyeball it. But stats like 87% uptime have to be put in context of what happens in the dungeon, not just trotted out like they solve arguments.

Of course! There's context outside the numbers, such as the party setup, experience with the content and their jobs, item level etc. that the parser doesn't tell. But there's also a lot of context in parser numbers: incoming damage vs. heal (overhealing or underhealing in specific parts), mitigation and possible healing abilities used by non-healers (including the use of tank stance vs. DPS stance), activity of each party member, group DPS and its distribution between members, the amount of actions used by each party member and so on... Of course you can eyeball some of it, but the numbers can tell you things in a much more detailed manner.

Edit: I did try to provide context for the numbers in my original post about my experiment, quoted earlier in this thread. What are the things that you find to be missing from that?

[RiyahArp]

This argument people were just using those numbers without acknowledging that they exist in a context, because they batched together the different phases of the dungeon. The healer who doesn't like to DPS sees the high uptime part of trash and neglects or forgets that bosses are much easier; the dps pro is forgetting how intense it is to heal the large pack of trash that everyone is aoeing down, and that it is usually the difficult part, not the actual bosses. People tend to give numbers standing alone an authority they shouldn't give, as if stating a percent or raw target number somehow alone settles an argument.

Parsers only exist because SE failed to give accurate feedback of how well you do in a dungeon, and relied on stupid, non-intuitive forms of damage like dots being the highest potency overall of your attacks. Something as simple as a combo counter that grows each time you land your 1-2-3 combos in a time limit, or a nice explosion at the end of a DOT that gives slight bonus damage would do much better than a parser in helping the average player.

[F_Maximillian]

This argument people were just using those numbers without acknowledging that they exist in a context, because they batched together the different phases of the dungeon. The healer who doesn't like to DPS sees the high uptime part of trash and neglects or forgets that bosses are much easier; the dps pro is forgetting how intense it is to heal the large pack of trash that everyone is aoeing down, and that it is usually the difficult part, not the actual bosses. People tend to give numbers standing alone an authority they shouldn't give, as if stating a percent or raw target number somehow alone settles an argument.

Parsers only exist because SE failed to give accurate feedback of how well you do in a dungeon, and relied on stupid, non-intuitive forms of damage like dots being the highest potency overall of your attacks. Something as simple as a combo counter that grows each time you land your 1-2-3 combos in a time limit, or a nice explosion at the end of a DOT that gives slight bonus damage would do much better than a parser in helping the average player.

I've.. yet to see anyone actually care about trash mob parses...

[akaneakki]

The way I understood it, that's what he doesn't like, and I kind of agree. Being a good healer just makes you a boring one-button DPS that sometimes has to lose GCDs to heal. You can only cast stone so many times before you start hating life.

It's not always the same case. If you only heal you either afk every 3-5 seconds even 6-8. If you do both you have time to cast a lot of more stones. However, it's not always like that. You also have to learn how to controll your OgCds plus it's not always time to cast stone when there is some little bit healing etc. If you are really good at it, it gives you really high reward of terms of healing and dps.
SCH you need to controll your pet, use xcog when it's good to use, you have to use the pet teather as well if you want to squeeze in some more dps when tank gets hit a bit harder etc. I'm not really a big fan of AST so I cant tell, however, I can understand from your view and his that you both don't like it (that if you both come from MMO where healers can only heal). I've played MMO where healers have to heal and MMO where there are no healers but yourself to blame if you go low on HP. Blade and Soul is one of them for example. But it's alot more interactive doing both dps instead of just healing. You don't exactly heal all the time either just as you dont always dps.

If you like to have a better skill ceiling and do more, play SCH. It's realy high reward if you play it well too.

[miraidensetsu]

If healers and tanks DPS is so much important that without it no one beat enrage, how about turn something like this META?

[F_Maximillian]

If healers and tanks DPS is so much important that without it no one beat enrage, how about turn something like this META?

Doesn't that actually further the point that tank/healer dps is potent and contributes alot?

[KaldeaSahaline]

I'd be 100% OK with shifting the game to a 0 DPS healing paradigm and a actual tanking paradigm.

In order to do that though you'd need to actually make those jobs engaging:

1) Healers would need to heal frequently and necessarily. No more only needing heals every 10s nonsense.
2) Give healers external cooldowns to help mitigate damage on tank/other parties mandatory for surviving tough damage phases.
3) Tanks would need actual responsibilities. Real aggro drops, dangerous enemy damage, active mitigation model (via rotation/abilities not long cooldowns). Interrupts, and CC needed and mandatory or else dire consequences etc. You'd need to have enemies and bosses need to be moved to control space, etc.

Would you be ok with the game design shifting this way? Anything less than this and you'll see an enormous exodus away from tanks/healers because playing these jobs would be absolutely mind-numbing.

[randoom]

Best way to heal or tank is a dead monster.

[Teinixi]

Things and stuff.

Oh I'm not against healer DPS, I just think that the healer DPS rotations are boring as shit, at least for WHM and AST, which means that most of the fight you're basically pressing one button. Haven't played much of SCH but from my limited experience, the balance of DPS/healing skills in their kit feels much better than the other two.