DPS is the job of DPS.

[Fhaerron]

i prefere a healer who doesn't DPS than a healer who doesnt know that he has Esuna
/discuss

You can still keep casting stone after Esuna/cure.

/discuss

[Neophyte]

Tank 1 can hold aggro and mitigate content perfectly well, while doing 3500ish dps.

Tank 2 also holds aggro and mitigates, while doing 2500 dps.

Which tank is preferable to have in your party?

This.

Second ones are like cars with broken radio, air conditioning, signals and only one gear. Sure, they still do their job (driving), but they're still broken.

[Frizze]

I think we'll have to argue on lala vs nonlala tank instead.

I think all tanks should be lalas, because they look yummier so more mobs want to go after them.

You make a good point about looking yummy for the monsters. They probly would want an appetizer(lala) before moving on to the main course(taller, meatier, better looking party members). But i worry that while the lalatank is being chewed up i might get lala juice on my outfit. Id have to burn it and get a new one. That can get annoying and expensive.

[MoroMurasaki]

Since we're going to bring up Taika's 17% run and the OP of this thread's reaction to that evidence I thought it was a great time to make good on my copy/pasting of prior arguments... This ws my response to the OP of tie thread calling Taika's post on 17% healing uptime "bullshit".

"I don't like facts that are inconvenient to my narrative, must be untrue despite fflog/video evidence."

C'mon there buddy, I know irrefutable evidence is inconvenient when it's supporting your opposition but to call a perfectly fine example of an experiment by a very respected forum user 'bullshit' is really childish.

Will every expert roulette only require 17% healing? No, but Taika didn't say that, the point was made that this one did. Maybe that Savage prog BLM tipped the scales with great DPS. Maybe the WAR could have been more conservative in his pulls to require even less healing. The point is not that every expert roulette requires 17% healing uptime but rather that if a dungeon can be completed at 17% then it seems insane to argue any healer doesn't have the time to throw in some DPS.

The point is simple - if Taika can heal an expert roulette with 17% uptime any healer can heal expert roulette with under 80% healing GCDs. What do you do with that leftover time?

Well you could /manderville or actually contribute to the party.

i prefere a healer who doesn't DPS than a healer who doesnt know that he has Esuna
/discuss

Wait I have esuna? O.o

[Zeonsilt]

As it was said numerous times, prepare to DPS as a tank or healer in Savage content. Especially if it's new Raid Tier and everyone is undergeared.

Apart from that -> it doesn't really matter, but it helps to speed up things and, usually, people really appreciated it.

p.s. It's always nice to encounter healers, who can pull 2500+ DPS, while keeping your party alive.
Kudos to those players.

[Mirch]

I agree with OP

[Taika]

As it was said numerous times, prepare to DPS as a tank or healer in Savage content. Especially if it's new Raid Tier and everyone is undergeared.

Yup, going to quote myself from another recent discussion:

Content is only designed without the healer DPS in mind if the group is above the item level available to them when the content is released ("assumed item level" in that quote) and both DDs and tanks are pulling at least 85-90% of their calculated optimal DPS (and I'm fairly certain that calculated optimal DPS is somewhat far from a human player's reach).

Reducing this to "fights are designed to be beaten without healer DPS" is, even if theoretically true in a sense, completely misleading. In reality, if you really leave the group DPS as the DPS and tank players' responsibility, in many fights this means expecting them to be amongst the top 10% of all the players in the whole world, while at the same time you're allowing your healers to be significantly less active and perform in a way lower level. I don't see a reasonable argument for how this kind of distribution of responsibilities could be justified.

For example, OS4 requires a bit more than 23K DPS without limit break. If we assume the healers do 0 DPS and tanks do 5k total, that leaves 4.5k for each DD. That would currently put a RDM or BRD in top 11% of all the RDM/BRD players in the world, and even a DRG in top 21%. And this is now, when we're at item level 340 (with i345 weapons), when the content has been released when we were 20 item levels lower - so when the content was just released it would have required much more from the DDs.

This is one of the reasons why FFlogs is a great tool: if there's a healer or tank player who's thinking that it's not their responsibility to take part in the group DPS effort, they can check the fight's DPS requirements and then see what they're asking from their DDs in terms of performance if they refuse to participate - and at the same time it tells them the potential their job could bring in the group if they would be willing to give that effort.

In general, I find it best to think "what can me and my job do for this party to make this run go as well as possible", and then take following that as your job instead of limiting yourself to some arbitrary trope. Of course this doesn't mean you should give your 100% on every expert run or play your job optimally, but just try to be at least somewhat useful in all the ways your job is capable of being. (And before someone starts directing this comment off track, I really do mean you should try to be useful, which does not mean you should be healing as a RDM when you could be more useful DPSing, or DPSing as a healer when those heals are really needed...)

[Kewitt]

SE please use 512 bit encryption on all logs to put these issue to bed. FF-XIV log wouldn't be used to split the community.

[popotaro]

[akaneakki]

it is not the healers job. it is not the tanks job.

Should the healer and tank strive to do as much dps as possible? SURE! as long as they are also performing their actual job first and foremost. and their ACTUAL job should be the first thing people look at when looking for a tank or healer.

I just ran a 50-60 roulette where: Tank AND healer did more than the MNK. Mnk didn't do his job as dps then. No aoe, didn't keep up demolish on boss fights. Explain to me how the tank never died when the healer did nearly twice as much as the MNK. While the healer did her/his duty as healer while doing a good chunck of damage that you also said, is a dps job, but they never did it. Explain, I want your expertise.