I miss the old PvP.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I dunno man, making changes to PvP based on the word of non-PvPers is like balancing raids on non-raiders. Somewhere, someone has to ask "Does this make sense? Is this based at all on any feedback we've gotten?" They claim they learned to listen to the fans from 1.0, and yet, PvP seems to be that giant exception to the rule.

I really love the game, and enjoy making PvP related content, but between these questionable changes, and the generally dismissive/hostile/allergic reaction the rest of the playerbase has to it, I'm starting to want a different game to make content for. . .

[Guesswhat]

Well, SE is rumoured to make weird decisions at the helm, so it could be that. But if you take into consideration how shoe-horned PvP was in this game, and that it caters to casual players, I think it's reasonable to assume they would rather strive to keep the casual core happy. That is, battle hardened PvP vets may have a free word, but if any data suggest otherwise, despite what said PvP vets may say, they follow the money. I would say that would be the safest assumption, and why they won't communicate properly. The things we do hear from them match pretty neatly with this assumption (replies are always vague). But of course, I have no idea what's going on; only assuming based on own experience with AAA companies (I've worked in 2 as a programmer).

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Battle-hardened PvP vets were the ones PvPing. The "casual core" was too busy parroting the misconceptions of PvP being toxic and bad, while avoiding it altogether. It's a case of a minority that actually experienced it, verses a majority opinion with little to no grounds or evidence behind it.

It's like me saying "Stormblood is bad!" but I haven't played more than a few minutes of, or any Stormblood content yet at all.

[Guesswhat]

What I'm trying to get to here is why SE acts like they do in regard to PvP vs feedback. What is the reason for the ongoing 1-way communication, and the vague replies at best?

Are they trolling us?
Are they incompetent?
Are they shy?
There are a lot of possibilities, but afaik, unless you seriously research (like, serious serious, private detective etc.), all you can do assume/guess within reason. If you manage to come up with a reasonable explanation, it may help getting through to them (but if my assumptions are correct, then we're dead in our tracks as of know).

[Araxes]

Are they trolling us?
Are they incompetent?
Are they shy?

I think they probably just want to have it THEYR Way wich is easier to "Balance" because of the massive reduction of Actions.

[Shirolumi]

I think they probably just want to have it THEYR Way wich is easier to "Balance" because of the massive reduction of Actions.

Well at least we get regular PvP balance updates. Even if those changes are completely stupid. (#givemanaficationback).

[Divinemights]

I dunno man, making changes to PvP based on the word of non-PvPers is like balancing raids on non-raiders. Somewhere, someone has to ask "Does this make sense? Is this based at all on any feedback we've gotten?" They claim they learned to listen to the fans from 1.0, and yet, PvP seems to be that giant exception to the rule.

Despite of size and the toxicity of this "PvP" community, are you sure we are more knowledge than S/E dev themselves? It sounds very arrogant to claim so. There is a fatal bug with Monk's PvP action Riddle of Earth after patch 4.11 in which "that" community found it right away. The bug caused "reduce the damage taken by 10%" into "damage taken increased by 50%" As of today, no one in this PvP forum ever notice it yet. Are you sure we are really that knowledge as we claim so?

[Wintersandman]

Are you sure we are really that knowledge as we claim so?

Probably because most PvP vets know Monk is fail out the gate in PvP for the most part. They can be good but if you notice in most matches almost everyone is ranged as there is no survivability as a melee especially in 72 man. The wind up on MNK is the most brutal part. Why MNK when you can NIN/SAM/DRG which have a way to escape and you can get your burst off faster.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Despite of size and the toxicity of this "PvP" community, are you sure we are more knowledge than S/E dev themselves? It sounds very arrogant to claim so. There is a fatal bug with Monk's PvP action Riddle of Earth after patch 4.11 in which "that" community found it right away. The bug caused "reduce the damage taken by 10%" into "damage taken increased by 50%" As of today, no one in this PvP forum ever notice it yet. Are you sure we are really that knowledge as we claim so?

I'll be blunt. The majority of longtime PvPers are either banned from the official forums and CAN'T say anything about it, or they've all but given up on PvP and/or being legitimately heard and responded to on their concerns.

But since you're trying to make that point, here's a few threads I want you to go read:

"The New Chat Restriction in the Feast" - Please tell me how this fixed "toxicity" in the Feast and how it avoided all the issues the community said it would create?
Any of the "Feedback: [Job]" threads from between Stormblood launch and season 5's start
"Absolutely no balance changes for PvP in patch 4.06?" (This was where SE themselves admits that they didn't get enough feedback for job balancing in the preseason due to working on Omega Savage, yet started Feast season 5 anyways.)

Also, don't speak of toxicity in the PvP community as if it's such a rampant issue when that claim has been so repeatedly disproven many times. I can only speak for Aether, but because of the community's size, many of us simply know how to behave ourselves, and often times it's people who AREN'T regulars or PvEers trying to exploit or skate by without participating that prove to be more nasty than those that regularly play. But again, I can only speak for Aether. If things are THAT toxic on Primal, I'm sorry to hear that, but that's still not a wide example of the PvP community, and your problem to deal with besides.

[Divinemights]

The majority of longtime PvPers are either banned from the official forums and CAN'T say anything about it, or they've all but given up on PvP and/or being legitimately heard and responded to on their concerns.

Thank you for your response, but toxicity isn't the main focus of the discussion here. The point is simply being: are we really that knowledge as we claim to be? I gave you a solid example to show our community is not as that knowledge as we believed to be. You were simply wield it off by gave a blunt response that those elite vets you are referring to are either can't post any more (due to their own toxicity) or don't care any more. It is very contradicting to what you have said and strongly emphasizing on.

Unfortunately your argument is weak because not only certain Discord has proven you wrong also FF14 reddit is clearly not aware of this bug. I am simply trying to ask you, are we really that knowledge to tell FF14 devs that their design logic is wrong?