In your darkest hour: DRK's identity crisis

[Eyvhokan]

You do know Cloud isn't technically a Dark Knight though right?

He is a greatsword user though, and the game doesn't really have jobs.

[Joe777]

He is a greatsword user though, and the game doesn't really have jobs.

That is true, but according to data collected on him he was classified as a "Mystic Knight (Berserker)", to quote the info I read, at some point at least.

[Reynhart]

Interesting analysis

For me, the first issue of DRK is that no previous incarnation has been a tank, so they had to built it from scratch as opposed to PLD and WAR where they could draw concept and skills from previous FF games. (And, several times, DRK was the exact opposite of tank, sacrificing survivability for more damage.)

The second issue is that they spread the tank skills too wide with PLD and WAR. you can easily create different means of tanking. A tank with self-healing a tank with that takes reduced damage, a tank that have a massive HP pool or get better heals, a tank that counters etc...But PLD and WAR each already spread accross at least 3 of those types, giving very little room for future tanks.

If PLD was, "the tank that heals itself" and WAR "the tank that have a massive HP pool", DRK could have been the "tank that reduces damage" or "the tank that leeches"...In fact, it would have been much more interesting to have a stance that reflects and leeches back 20% of the damage you take instead of a copy-paste of ShOath.

Defining a tank as "a defensive tank" is a dead-end, unless you go all the way there. Make it so that other tanks can't tank whole fights by themselves (4-man content not included), forcing swaps not for mechanics, but to spread cooldown upon two tanks. (On a sidenote, that was how NIN tanked at low level in FFXI, not having enough dodge skill or images to stay 100% on tank duty). On some fights in 2.x and 3.x PLD was frequently the tank that don't have enough CD for every big hit, while WAR and DRK always has something up their sleeves.

He is a greatsword user though, and the game doesn't really have jobs.

Greatsword wasn't even a weapon type before FFXI, so it's not that related to DRK.

[Joe777]

Greatsword wasn't even a weapon type before FFXI, so it's not that related to DRK.

What would make you say that? Greatswords are basically large two-handed swords, and those have been used long before 11. Most notably was Cloud in 7 and Steiner in 9.

[Reynhart]

What would make you say that? Greatswords are basically large two-handed swords, and those have been used long before 11. Most notably was Cloud in 7 and Steiner in 9.

In VII and IX, weapons didn"t have types besides "<character's_name> weapon". In fact, one of Cloud's Weapon was a Katana and one was even a Club. And Steiner could equip a Venetian Shield, making the concept of "two handed" weapons very...blurry.

And neither Cloud nor Steiner are technically Dark Knights.

[Joe777]

In VII and IX, weapons didn"t have types besides "<character's_name> weapon". In fact, one of Cloud's Weapon was a Katana and one was even a Club. And Steiner could equip a Venetian Shield, making the concept of "two handed" weapons very...blurry.

And neither Cloud nor Steiner are technically Dark Knights.

Of course they aren't, but you don't have to tie a weapon to anyone or anything for it to be its own thing. The characters that did wield them had other options, but could still wield them anyway. That means the weapon type, greatsword, existed period, and that's what truly matters.

[Reynhart]

That means the weapon type, greatsword, existed period, and that's what truly matters.

Greatsword still weren't related to DRK before FFXI, and even there, it wasn't their staple weapon...but Scythe is a dumb weapon.

[Eyvhokan]

Greatsword still weren't related to DRK before FFXI, and even there, it wasn't their staple weapon...but Scythe is a dumb weapon.

That's not exactly the point. The large sword (or greatsword) was made iconic in FF7, and people associate a lot with it.

In FFXIV, the only way to use a large sword (greatsword 2H style) is by playing DRK.

It's not specifically about the historic DRK (e.g. Cecil) but the use of the large sword in the game, and how weapon types are associated with the jobs.

[Reynhart]

It's not specifically about the historic DRK (e.g. Cecil) but the use of the large sword in the game, and how weapon types are associated with the jobs.

It still makes that sentence :

But it shouldn’t be. It’s one of the most well-recognised jobs in the franchise. Most fans of the series know Cecil. Pretty much everyone knows Cloud. You could make the case that, if you haven’t run into an angsty, greatsword-wielding protagonist yet, you’re probably not playing a Final Fantasy game.

off-topic, since Cecil didn't wield a Greatsword but was angsty (until he became PLD), and Cloud did wield a Greatsword but was not angsty (for the most part of FFVII), and surely not a Dark Knight.

[Mycow8me]

The problem with balance is the very ideology it imposes. For a perfect balance every class should be able to do the same things at the same times and that eliminates any possible aspect of class identity beyond aesthetics in the first place. So at some point you have to draw the line and say you can accept the fact that your class can't have or do "x" but in return you get or can do "y". The situation is that not everyone believes it is a fair deal and pleasing everyone is impossible. There is also the fine line that when crossed puts x or y into a "must have" for raid groups. I'm guessing SE found it refreshing to hear someone say they play a class because they enjoy it regardless of a possible myriad amount of issues with it.

Maybe the answer is instead of "something unique to contribute," its "contributing something in a unique way". We could all have the same versatility, dps, mitigation, sustain, utility, etc... but it is in contributed differently. It correlates to the overall play style of a class which i think has more to do with a classes identity than our toolkits which are arguably the same things with different animations and names. Traits could have played a major roll in this for tanks but instead are not intuitive. Imagine if every tank class responded to a critical hit differently, a parry differently, or even low hp differently. I believe this is where class identity could have started but that's just my opinion.