Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[Remedi]

I think it's better to buff RDM and BLM
Imho BLM should be aboud 100-200 dps more than SMN after you factor in the rdps, SMN might just be the better choice then when you factor everything, but the point is creating choices not the next best thing.

I'm not so naive to think that by making some changes we won't see one comp trampling all the others when played by the high end players since imho searching for the the strongest comp is what some players actively do

[Deceptus]

IMHO FFXIV has fallen into an issue that has long plagued World of Warcraft.

Balancing classes/jobs that offer exceptional utility vs those that only bring dps (aka the Hybrid Tax)

When offered two different jobs and both do comparable dps and one offers group utility, the job that offers utility will be picked most times. The only way to incentivize players to chose the job that doesn't offer utility, is to increase their DPS enough that the DPS outweighs the group utility.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

snip

Easier gameplay is not a factor when they balance, they already said this.

[Dyvid]

So do we remove raise from caster all together then or just make it a job action ability?

[Reynhart]

The only way to incentivize players to chose the job that doesn't offer utility, is to increase their DPS enough that the DPS outweighs the group utility.

In my opinion, it only works for straight damage utility. If we take the raise utility, we can advocate that RDM can bringer higher raid DPS by raising dead people faster, so its personal DPS should logically be lower than BLM. But, in a no-death run, this utility become useless, so it doesn't justify the lower DPS anymore.

It reminds me of how BRD had lower DPS "because they had higher mobility" in 2.x. Once people knew when and where to move, the highest mobility lost some of its values, and BRD complained...and get transformed into bow-mages

[Nominous]

BLM complaints isn't even about not being meta. It's about having nothing unique that is beneficial. Not even damage.

The post was in reply to that person's specific thoughts, not BLM complaints. As someone who has been playing a lot of SAM, I can understand the complaints that BLM have, I'm well aware of the state of things.

"High personal damage contribution" is the worst possible 'unique' characteristic to give a Job, because the only way to make it worthwhile is to make it so good that inevitably it's teetering on imbalance, and that's not good for the game either. The devs haven't found something that's an interesting alternative to what we already have. Which is why they just started slapping raidwide damage buffs on Jobs and calling it a day. I don't know, I can't speak for BLM or SAM, but... I don't want to be the next notch on that belt. If they do something, I don't just want to be another comparison to Trick Attack. But I guess even that'd be better than right now.

[zuzu-bq]

It's only a bad "unique" trait because its badly balance though. It's not inherently bad.

[Cynfael]

If we tanke the raise utility, we can advocate that RDM can bringer higher raid DPS by raising dead people faster, so its personal DPS should logically be lower than BLM. But, in a no-death run, this utility become useless, so it doesn't justify the lower DPS anymore.

Exactly. Balancing anything around the ability to resurrect is fraught with complications. Resurrection, unlike most other forms of utility, is 100% useless when lethal mistakes aren't made, so RDM gets phased out quickly when fights are on lockdown. Vercure is similarly useless from a support perspective when healers aren't dying, running out of MP, or not knowing the fight.

If BLM continues to bring no unique or highly desirable utility to raid comps, its personal damage should be noticeably stronger to compensate, at least to the point where it's consistently competitive with what other, more support-oriented DPS add to overall raid damage on top of their own contributions.

[Remedi]

IMHO FFXIV has fallen into an issue that has long plagued World of Warcraft.

Balancing classes/jobs that offer exceptional utility vs those that only bring dps (aka the Hybrid Tax)

When offered two different jobs and both do comparable dps and one offers group utility, the job that offers utility will be picked most times. The only way to incentivize players to chose the job that doesn't offer utility, is to increase their DPS enough that the DPS outweighs the group utility.

No offense but that's true on wow up to a certain point, on wow usually you bring what brings the highest dmg and usually you stack that class for max profit (0 lights, BWD nefarian, Spine)

[Tzain]

What if Sleep and Freeze applied debuffs to a target when their Control effect ends or is resisted?
Like Sleep decreases auto attack speed, skill speed, spell speed by X% (Effect Named "Groggy")
And Freeze causes the target to take extra damage from all sources (Effect Named "Fragile")

It occurs to me that Control is really the utility of the Black Mage (like how Recovery is Red Mage Utility) given how over the top powerful Sleep is on paper. And DCUO had a neat trick with Control abilities where they also provided debuffs for times when Control was immune or not needed (like a boss fight with only one target). So If I took those concepts and applied them here, it might work.
No one would really care that much if you toss a sleep into an AE pack, they'd break immediately and now they're all debuffed so big deal. And if you were using kill priority single target it works just as well.