Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[Remedi]

I don't understand how ppl can be so fixated on how to improve their dps but then overlook on how verraise actually interacts with RDM in a negative way.

As I said Verraise dualcasted costs you a 300 potency spell +11 black or white mana and a potential proc which means that unless you have impact rdy you'll lose another 30 potency in the next gcd because you'll have to use jolt 2, in short it kinda snowballs from there (tbh you couild give an approx value of dps to each mana points so the potency los is bigger)

As I said already RDM really nees to stick to the ABC rule and has no other source of dmg outside of his spellcasts and few OGCD, this makes SMN swiftcast ress superior, because they simply lose 1 ruin 3 cast which is about 1/3 (approx.) of their rotation dmg since even while ressing their dots are still ticking and sic ifrit well.....keeps doing his things.

True as some have said you can say that if 4 ppl dies a RDM can save an attempt but that's a thing honestly only if the encounter allows it and I don't feel like saying that savage will keep the difficulty it had in deltascape as they have said their intention is to make raids progressively harder to give a sense of progression, besides we now have ultimate fights and so far it's not that lenient with death
Tbf with ulotimate coil they have shown they care more about our ability of perform against mechanics than simply throwing dps checks at us which honestly is a good thing (well also because with the gear capped you can't be too much strict on that)

[Reynhart]

I don't understand how ppl can be so fixated on how to improve their dps but then overlook on how verraise actually interacts with RDM in a negative way.

Again, we need to see the big picture and not just personal numbers.
Sure, RDM loses some DPS by raising someone, but I think the raid would probably lose more DPS by having a BLM and being forced to keep some of its members dead for a longer time.
So, on progression, where deaths are a real threat, if BLM's personal DPS doesn't compensate the longer downtime on dead people, it's understandable to take a RDM that can raise 3 people in 6 GCDs.

My question is, how does a BLM compare to a RDM when they're both 100% DPSing ?

[zuzu-bq]

My question is, how does a BLM compare to a RDM when they're both 100% DPSing ?

BLM's personal damage actually beats RDM+Embolden, meanwhile SMN and MCH beats them both. Mostly because on top of Embolden being a weak party buff, RDM's own personal numbers are the lowest. RDM is the actual weakest ranged DPS job right now, but still desires because of its raise.

The power to Raise is not only important to clear throught deaths but also see more of the fight before wiping. Ultimate not being lenient to many deaths just lets SMN's lone raise have the same advantage (if not more because of the smaller damage loss) than RDM's on top of SMN itself having more damage. Sfia mentioned on a discord he tried both jobs and once he went SMN they consistently skipped Twintania's last Death Sentence.

[Reynhart]

BLM's personal damage actually beats RDM+Embolden, meanwhile SMN and MCH beats them both.

That's definitely a problem, then. If SMN beats BLM both on personal damage and indirect contribution on raid damage, BLM should be upped on at least one of those.

The power to Raise is not only important to clear throught deaths but also see more of the fight before wiping.

This is much trickier to balance. If the only penalty of one death is DPS (Like faiing a DPS check), a BLM with higher base DPS could compensate or, like I half-jokingly suggested before, a way of gaining DPS when someone is dead.
If the penatly is screwing a mechanic, it's more complicated for each job to bring an equally valuable solution.

[zuzu-bq]

This is much trickier to balance. If the only penalty of one death is DPS (Like faiing a DPS check), a BLM with higher base DPS could compensate or, like I half-jokingly suggested before, a way of gaining DPS when someone is dead.
If the penatly is screwing a mechanic, it's more complicated for each job to bring an equally valuable solution.

I agree that is a tricky balance, at the moment the chain raise power of RDM do not need much balance mostly because RDM itself is weak. While SMN's ability to raise only really stands out because the MP issues were fixed and SMN can offer everything else other casters can but better, so OP's point is meme levels of balancement to be honest. While I think Red Mage need damage tweaks, unless it becomes the mage with the best damage output the Raise part of it won't need any balancement really. Its a niche ability. I could justify myself being a BLM over other casters for Omega progression because BLM had the best damage output by savage release which helped us push a few things we otherwise wouldn't for example. I did change for RDM a few moments to use Raises to let us see more of the fight and in the case of O2S clear without figuring how Catastrophe's Longdrop worked by simply raising dead people (we were stacking only 4 to the shared damage). Its funny to think casters were actually more balanced betweeen eachother before they started "fixing" Summoner.

[TelosNox]

So, on progression, where deaths are a real threat, if BLM's personal DPS doesn't compensate the longer downtime on dead people, it's understandable to take a RDM that can raise 3 people in 6 GCDs.

RDM with 340 gear has about 14500 Mana. From my latest parse in fflogs I see that RDM consumes about 4k Mana per minute (just his own skill, no mana shift, no raise - and yes I play efficient, I am at 96% in that parse).
Lucid Dreaming restores 6720MP every 2 minutes. So without any external Mana a Redmage consumes about 1300MP in 2 minutes that he can not restore.
Raid Boss fights are about 10 Minutes. So RDM will effectively consume 5 x 1300 = 6500MP until end of fight if he uses Lucid Dreaming on CD. So he has about 8k Mana left over.

Raise is 3,6k Mana. So 3 Raise in a Row will be 10,8k Mana. If you do 3 Raise as RDM (not necessarily in a row), you will end up doing no dps for the last 2-3 minutes if there is no other who provides Mana for you.

[MStowastiqVahlshdeh]

I don't understand how ppl can be so fixated on how to improve their dps but then overlook on how verraise actually interacts with RDM in a negative way. --snip---

Ohhhhh no wonder! It made no sense to me just sitting there in a pile of bodies hoping RDM would chip in but if that is the case it explains a lot of whats been going on. Anyways, I am fine doing the back up rezzing until I get yelled at about how I need to put out more dps or gtfo/replace, at that point I ask the healers if they need me to rez from that point on. If they still say yes and we agree its worth the cut to dps then no problem I will keep on.

I have had situation where we could still beat enrage timers if I keep back up rezzing and in those situations, the whole group agrees its okay to cut my dps to help rez.

RDM with 340 gear has about 14500 Mana. From my latest parse in fflogs I see that RDM consumes about 4k Mana per minute (just his own skill, no mana shift, no raise - and yes I play efficient, I am at 96% in that parse).

I do not hardcore raid, only cleared 01s.. but in any situation I have been in, I give mana first to healers. That is not to say that I don't give it to others if they need it because I keep my Mana Shift on cd and check the full party list for people who need it and tend to prioritize healers because they need it. If no one needs it, I keep it to give to healers upon them being rezzed if they die.

I just have not seen a situation where RDM needed it but I will stress again, I don't hardcore raid.

That being said, the mana I have available is optimal and its very easy to recover even after death. Perhaps SMN's doing hardcore raiding in ex's, savage and ultimate coil are a different story, however.