AST Sects: Should it go both ways?

[dotsforlife]

I only bother with Diurnal in stuff like dungeons, dailies and roulettes. It allows you to DPS more with the regens up. Noct is better suited for end game content imo but it really comes down to what your cohealer is.

[Riyshn]

N.Ast also falls short of sch in every way possible when they're competing for the same raid spot.

Except for... you know... actual mitigation and party utility.

[CreinCrein]

Scholar offers more party utility and raid damage contribution than Nocturnal Astrologian. The dps discrepancy between the two classes is already anywhere from 500-800 at the 95th+ percentile, not factoring in chain stratagem, the opening fey wind, or how scholar is the only healer class that can elevate the dps of their co-healer without negatively impacting their own. A majority of the higher tiered parses on Astro are also obtained by leaning and pushing on Eos's ability to carry the brunt of the required HPS as well as scholar's OGCDs. 50% balance uptime (which is generous) for an entire party pushing 30k raid-wide dps, is only 750 + lul rng. In addition, regardless of how "big dick" Astro's shields are, they will never make up for the amount of free healing that Eos brings to a raid. Both first and second Ultimate Coil clears were with sch/whm, so obviously there's no impactful shortcomings in scholar's mitigation.

[Mimilu]

Personally, I think the devs need to choose if AST is going to focus on HoTs or mitigation, design the job around that, removing the sects, and add a new healer in the future to take up the dropped sects place.
As it stands, the balance between N.AST and SCH changes far more radically then between D.AST and WHM, with one receiving a buff and making the other inferior.
I think the sects also create a balancing issue within AST themselves because both are pretty much treated as two separate jobs in hardcore content, valuing different secondary stats and using their respective effects at different times (before or after a big hit).

[Kabzy]

Both first and second Ultimate Coil clears were with sch/whm, so obviously there's no impactful shortcomings in scholar's mitigation.

I agree with most of what you've said, but this point is a little silly. Two clears can hardly conclude anything, especially given the world first had a DRK in it.

Then some Japanese group will magically solo something with a N.AST and people will be in awe of it again. None of the healers are bad, including N.AST. It just doesn't outclass SCH in every way since the 4.1 buffs. I also agree with Mimilu, and actually this was a suggestion of mine way back in 3.4 or 3.5. The idea that better balance could be achieved by making AST a direct competitor with WHM and introducing a new healer to compete with SCH. Unfortunately we got no new healer, but at least they sorted out the WHM being dead issue.

[CreinCrein]

I hate using outlying information to make a point as well, but the gist of it was to prove that at adequate skill levels scholar can overcome their shortcomings in raw mitigation. In my opinion they have more than enough % mitigation to make up for the paltry loss in shield potency, if not exceeding it in output. It sets precedence for content of similar intensity in the future I guess is what I was getting at, we'll see as more clears come up. Personally progressing through Ultimate on SCH I see many points where I think that N.Ast
would have an much harder time working through, but that's from the viewpoint of someone who's a "meh" Astro on a good day

[Sebazy]

Personally progressing through Ultimate on SCH I see many points where I think that N.Ast have an much harder time working through, but that's from the viewpoint of someone who's a "meh" Astro on a good day

Nope, you're absolutely bang on with that assessment IMHO, I'm having to pug and cover other groups to get my coil fix and as such, more often than not I'm having to run N.AST as I didn't bother levelling SCH. Right from the get go there's plenty of occasions where an AST has a comparatively hard time getting galvs up in time for mechanics. SCH's options simply work better here.

[Riyshn]

I hate using outlying information to make a point as well, but the gist of it was to prove that at adequate skill levels scholar can overcome their shortcomings in raw mitigation. In my opinion they have more than enough % mitigation to make up for the paltry loss in shield potency, if not exceeding it in output. It sets precedence for content of similar intensity in the future I guess is what I was getting at, we'll see as more clears come up. Personally progressing through Ultimate on SCH I see many points where I think that N.Ast have an much harder time working through, but that's from the viewpoint of someone who's a "meh" Astro on a good day

That's not the argument you originally made, though. You said that N.AST falls short of SCH in every way, which... they don't. The fact that SCH's mitigation is potentially enough for a given fight does not negate the fact that N.AST's mitigation is objectively stronger.

[Kabzy]

That's not the argument you originally made, though. You said that N.AST falls short of SCH in every way, which... they don't. The fact that SCH's mitigation is potentially enough for a given fight does not negate the fact that N.AST's mitigation is objectively stronger.

It depends on how you look at it though. If SCH can mitigate everything just fine, then AST having better shields doesn't really give it an advantage over SCH. So while you're not technically wrong, neither is Crein.

I do think Crein is right in that SCH does quite a bit better than N.AST ever since the 4.1 changes. The issue is that they can never seem to get the balance between the two shielders right, and I'd rather they not go down the route of buffing AST every fortnight.

In my opinion, the issue is simply SCHs core design. I think SCH synergizes the best with both WHM and AST, and AST just doesn't have the tools or design to do the same. They can keep buffing the healing to N.sect, but WHM doesn't require their partner to have big heals, so it's almost irrelevant. Then when we go to the DPS side, AST has the potential to boost more, but it's completely gated by RNG, and generally a SCHs DPS utility will still be better when factoring in their own higher DPS. ASTs saving grace right now is that D.AST is still very strong, and N.AST isn't trash. But in the future, it really would be good if they completely removed the sects, gave AST one focus and brought in a new healer to directly compete with what SCH brings to a healing duo.

(They've basically recreated the SMN/SCH struggle in one job if you think about it.)

[CreinCrein]

Stronger is not better. Frequency available, ease of use, opportunity cost all factor into the overall scope of how x can be better than y. N.Ast lacks the output to contend with scholar right now in it's current state; that's my opinion. We can nitpick potencies and the strengths of certain abilities but I don't really care for much more than what a class can output and what it costs to drive that output.

I really do think throwing a new healer into the mix that emulates scholars strengths while being different would be super healthy for the game tho. I think it's near impossible to balance a class that has a duty to cover for two different types of play styles. Hopefully when that happens this buff-buff teeter totter thingy they have going on won't be as apparent.

@Sebazy the difference on twin alone I imagine to be night and day. Scholar can pretty much cover for 90% of the healing done without casting a single healing GCD. I enjoy it a lot haha