SiO isn't enough.

[MagiusNecros]

If i could have a change to anything,(honestly and not trolling/joking) it would be overpower into a circular aoe and no target requirements. I'm not really bothered by the lack of war clears.

I honestly want OP to generate 5 rage per enemy hit so you can Cyclone/Decimate more in AoE pulls. But eh whatever.

[xJimmehx]

I honestly want OP to generate 5 rage per enemy hit so you can Cyclone/Decimate more in AoE pulls. But eh whatever.

That does sound pretty nice. I have noticed that I cant use BG skills much if im spamming OP, but never thought much about it. If they did that, war would basically be perfect imo. lol

[Jukebox12]

In all reality war isn't perfect. Most of your damage comes fro. Storm path and storm eye and fell cleave isn't worth 50 beast gauge the only way it's worth it unless it's crit or crit direct

[Aana]

In all reality war isn't perfect. Most of your damage comes fro. Storm path and storm eye and fell cleave isn't worth 50 beast gauge the only way it's worth it unless it's crit or crit direct

Of course its worth 50 gauge. FC is always worth it (after upheaval). SE did a pretty good job streamlining the gauges to not have competing interests. The only thing you can spend gauge on is damage actions. If you had to choose between 50 gauge for vengeance or 50 gauge for FC then you could say 'FC isn't worth 50 gauge'. But the onl ything you can spend gauge on is damage. Just like Pld's is choosing defense or defense. No competing interest. Drks is damage now or (more) damage later on a 2min CD. How is using energy (gauge) to do damage 'not worth it' when the gauge's entire purpose is a battery that gives damage? That's just silly.

War certainly doesnt need MOAR damage. Changing the distribution of damage is an aesthetic preference. Some people like building up the rage beast until you can no longer contain it then blowing your inner release load all over things faces. Some don't. That's just a preference, not a balance issue. Balance wise war certainly does not need MOAR damage. Not liking how it actually does its very good damage is just an opinion. But it fits the characterization of war, so Id rather it stay than go. If you want a different play experience that's why there are different jobs with different characterization.

[MauvaisOeil]

Of course its worth 50 gauge. FC is always worth it (after upheaval). SE did a pretty good job streamlining the gauges to not have competing interests. The only thing you can spend gauge on is damage actions. If you had to choose between 50 gauge for vengeance or 50 gauge for FC then you could say 'FC isn't worth 50 gauge'. But the onl ything you can spend gauge on is damage. Just like Pld's is choosing defense or defense. No competing interest. Drks is damage now or (more) damage later on a 2min CD. How is using energy (gauge) to do damage 'not worth it' when the gauge's entire purpose is a battery that gives damage? That's just silly.

War certainly doesnt need MOAR damage. Changing the distribution of damage is an aesthetic preference. Some people like building up the rage beast until you can no longer contain it then blowing your inner release load all over things faces. Some don't. That's just a preference, not a balance issue. Balance wise war certainly does not need MOAR damage. Not liking how it actually does its very good damage is just an opinion. But it fits the characterization of war, so Id rather it stay than go. If you want a different play experience that's why there are different jobs with different characterization.

The ramp up is tremendous now compared to HW. Since you can hold gauge up to 100, you can "almost never" FC before the Zerk button comes off. The gauge thing is a double edged sword. On a side, you can keep and spend witouth worrying because you can actually store more than one FC, but on the other side, since you have powerfull buffs exploiting this store, you cannot really do something else than storing it because, using it outside of the zerk / zerk-ir window is a bad employment of beast gauge.

That's one of my regrets about the beast gauge extension. While I would have loved during HW a way to delay my FC usage withouth wasting abandon stacks, it endend I can only lock my FC usage now, until my main cooldowns are back.

On this specific issue, the NIN gauge is fairly best designed. Since you can store a bit, but only 25% of what a spender would cost you, pooling is impossible but delaying by a couple GCD is. (However, the nin gauge fall on the one skill every 30s rule of doom, for optimisation purposes).

[Aana]

The ramp up is tremendous now compared to HW. Since you can hold gauge up to 100, you can "almost never" FC before the Zerk button comes off. The gauge thing is a double edged sword. On a side, you can keep and spend witouth worrying because you can actually store more than one FC, but on the other side, since you have powerfull buffs exploiting this store, you cannot really do something else than storing it because, using it outside of the zerk / zerk-ir window is a bad employment of beast gauge.

That's one of my regrets about the beast gauge extension. While I would have loved during HW a way to delay my FC usage withouth wasting abandon stacks, it endend I can only lock my FC usage now, until my main cooldowns are back.

On this specific issue, the NIN gauge is fairly best designed. Since you can store a bit, but only 25% of what a spender would cost you, pooling is impossible but delaying by a couple GCD is. (However, the nin gauge fall on the one skill every 30s rule of doom, for optimisation purposes).

They certainly doubled down on the war burst/exploding inner beast theme. But that is still a thematic/aesthetic complaint. Not a balance one. Balance would be if they did dramatically less or more damage than other tanks. War's overall power level is pretty objectively balanced (relative to the agreed 'best' tank pld if using that as the benchmark of what a tank should be). Balance is numbers. Playstyle/fun is subjective aesthetics. Don't screw up the balance to change your personal view of aesthetics.

[MauvaisOeil]

They certainly doubled down on the war burst/exploding inner beast theme. But that is still a thematic/aesthetic complaint. Not a balance one. Balance would be if they did dramatically less or more damage than other tanks. War's overall power level is pretty objectively balanced (relative to the agreed 'best' tank pld if using that as the benchmark of what a tank should be). Balance is numbers. Playstyle/fun is subjective aesthetics. Don't screw up the balance to change your personal view of aesthetics.

Pretty much irrelevant as I asked nothing that wasn't already the case in HW, and that nothing cannot be retuned adaptating numbers. If by some divine intervention, my thoughts would be used as a basis for anything, That wouldn't be with some number crunching I'm sure.

It doesn't seem that you can differenciate the aesthetic/thematic with the pleasure associated in gameplay flow, right ? Pressing one button per minute that does the same exact potency as the current cycle is still fairly balanced (not speaking of snapshot and such, it's and hyperbolic comparison), but ends up pretty boring right ?

That's the fairly amusing fact about FF, the low GCD and lack of procs and dynamic gameplay allow to map pretty much everything into Potency per second, or per minute, or whatever. That's the most intriguing part about : how come they don't do it while balancing jobs ?

[Aana]

Pretty much irrelevant as I asked nothing that wasn't already the case in HW, and that nothing cannot be retuned adaptating numbers. If by some divine intervention, my thoughts would be used as a basis for anything, That wouldn't be with some number crunching I'm sure.

It doesn't seem that you can differenciate the aesthetic/thematic with the pleasure associated in gameplay flow, right ? Pressing one button per minute that does the same exact potency as the current cycle is still fairly balanced (not speaking of snapshot and such, it's and hyperbolic comparison), but ends up pretty boring right ?

That's the fairly amusing fact about FF, the low GCD and lack of procs and dynamic gameplay allow to map pretty much everything into Potency per second, or per minute, or whatever. That's the most intriguing part about : how come they don't do it while balancing jobs ?

Except some people WOULD find that 'fun' and 'enjoyable'. There are people that like super passive pet army based builds in diable. Some that like high APM knifes edge, mobile glass cannon play. Why is the passive pet guy's 'fun' less important than twitchy mctwitch's 'fun'? They are both people. Those are obviously extreme examples and there comes a point where a game just might not be for you. But 14 has setup its overall 'style' with the 2.5 GCD and fairly limited 'action RPG' elements (thinks like having a 'block' button you must time within the millisecond to parry an attack, or 'aiming' all your attacks properly to hit etc). The overall framework is there. If you don't like a game built around the fundamental elements 14 is you wont like it.

To bring it back around, the jobs were all designed with a certain theme or 'feel' in mind just like 14 has some fundamentals compared to other MMO playstyles. The guys who like small, precisely planned and executed burst play might be drawn to war. The consistent DOT style tank may be attracted to the constant stream of damage Drk does. Etc. Fundamentally changing these aspects of the class will only disenfranchise those who were drawn to their current state. Essentially making the devs choose 'whos' fun is more important to focus the job on. Focus on the people who play it NOW, or the people that 'might' play it if you change it up. Theres an obvious, safe, choice there. If you want a 'new' experience to attract new players or shift the playerbase to a different role then you make a new job that plays differently than all the other ones in its role. Fundamentally rewriting jobs is just the worst of both. Instead of developing an additional experience to play (new job) you are redeveloping an old one which will turn some number of existing players away that ALREADY play it.

That's why, on the whole, I am 'resistant' to change. A good redesign is 2 steps forward and 1 step back. A poor redesign is 1 step forward 2 steps back. Just putting those efforts to a new experience all together is just 1-2 steps forward with no backlash by changing what people already like. You only give and never take away with that method. Obviously if jobs are broken beyond repair you need to redesign. *cough*2.0war*cough*. But that's a rarity. No job is THAT broken right now.

[MauvaisOeil]

Except some people WOULD find that 'fun' and 'enjoyable'. There are people that like super passive pet army based builds in diable. Some that like high APM knifes edge, mobile glass cannon play. Why is the passive pet guy's 'fun' less important than twitchy mctwitch's 'fun'? They are both people. Those are obviously extreme examples and there comes a point where a game just might not be for you. But 14 has setup its overall 'style' with the 2.5 GCD and fairly limited 'action RPG' elements (thinks like having a 'block' button you must time within the millisecond to parry an attack, or 'aiming' all your attacks properly to hit etc). The overall framework is there. If you don't like a game built around the fundamental elements 14 is you wont like it.

To bring it back around, the jobs were all designed with a certain theme or 'feel' in mind just like 14 has some fundamentals compared to other MMO playstyles. The guys who like small, precisely planned and executed burst play might be drawn to war. The consistent DOT style tank may be attracted to the constant stream of damage Drk does. Etc. Fundamentally changing these aspects of the class will only disenfranchise those who were drawn to their current state. Essentially making the devs choose 'whos' fun is more important to focus the job on. Focus on the people who play it NOW, or the people that 'might' play it if you change it up. Theres an obvious, safe, choice there. If you want a 'new' experience to attract new players or shift the playerbase to a different role then you make a new job that plays differently than all the other ones in its role. Fundamentally rewriting jobs is just the worst of both. Instead of developing an additional experience to play (new job) you are redeveloping an old one which will turn some number of existing players away that ALREADY play it.

That's why, on the whole, I am 'resistant' to change. A good redesign is 2 steps forward and 1 step back. A poor redesign is 1 step forward 2 steps back. Just putting those efforts to a new experience all together is just 1-2 steps forward with no backlash by changing what people already like. You only give and never take away with that method. Obviously if jobs are broken beyond repair you need to redesign. *cough*2.0war*cough*. But that's a rarity. No job is THAT broken right now.

Did you even read anything before making up your answer based on what you had in mind that exact moment ?

[Aana]

Did you even read anything before making up your answer based on what you had in mind that exact moment ?

It doesn't seem that you can differenciate the aesthetic/thematic with the pleasure associated in gameplay flow, right ? Pressing one button per minute that does the same exact potency as the current cycle is still fairly balanced (not speaking of snapshot and such, it's and hyperbolic comparison), but ends up pretty boring right ?

I assumed you meant that sarcastically to make your point that there is a 'fun' way and a 'not fun' way to play using an absurd example. Thus my point that (aside from the absurd extreme you took it too) that your attempt to use sarcasm to dismiss actually highlighted my point on why changing jobs fundamentally is more problematic. If you didn't mean that then oh well. That's what I read from it.