Yoshi P./Dev team/Job balance team Please Say Something About DRK

[Chrono_Rising]

Do Scholar's just not exist to you?

I know that this is supposed to be ranting about how slighted DRK is (which I agree with) but the majority of classes I play have abilities that have resource costs, or hefty cooldowns. I don't really get why people keep advertising TBN as atrocious when it's probably part of why DRK is still viable (not necessarily preferred, but I can get as far in savage content as DRK as I can as WAR).

Yeah, thats why they changed shake it off right? Warriors were completely unable to clear content without it. :^)

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Do Scholar's just not exist to you?

I know that this is supposed to be ranting about how slighted DRK is (which I agree with) but the majority of classes I play have abilities that have resource costs, or hefty cooldowns. I don't really get why people keep advertising TBN as atrocious when it's probably part of why DRK is still viable (not necessarily preferred, but I can get as far in savage content as DRK as I can as WAR).

Because only DRK has to choose between sacrificing DPS for mitigation whereas it's a last resort option for PLD and WAR. While I love TBN, its true potential would only ever come in scenario with near constant high amounts of tank damage-- enough where the other two tanks might be forced into using Clemency or Equilibrium/Inner Beast. They will never design a fight like that. Therefore, the one advantage TBN could have is completely worthless.

[Ekimmak]

Yeah, thats why they changed shake it off right? Warriors were completely unable to clear content without it. :^)

They changed shake it off because it was easy to do. Everyone* hated it, they made it a shield so that War could do something for the party other than hit hard, and everyone was pleased.

With DRK, nobody can really agree on what is the part that needs the most help, so there's no real way to determine how to get it up to scratch. TBN is, at the moment, the only advantage DRK has. It doesn't measure up to Shake It Off or Divine Veil for the same reason that Heavy Swing doesn't measure up to Goring Blade: they shouldn't be compared like that.

*: I certainly didn't hate the original, and have a bit of disdain for the current version, but apparently the minority doesn't count.

[Chrono_Rising]

They changed shake it off because it was easy to do. Everyone* hated it, they made it a shield so that War could do something for the party other than hit hard, and everyone was pleased.

With DRK, nobody can really agree on what is the part that needs the most help, so there's no real way to determine how to get it up to scratch. TBN is, at the moment, the only advantage DRK has. It doesn't measure up to Shake It Off or Divine Veil for the same reason that Heavy Swing doesn't measure up to Goring Blade: they shouldn't be compared like that.

*: I certainly didn't hate the original, and have a bit of disdain for the current version, but apparently the minority doesn't count.

Your asterisk implies that in fact we don't need everyone just "enough" people.
I think most people would agree on the following:
1) Dark passenger is trash
2) Shadow Wall has too long a recast time
3) Delirium is underwhelming as a buff
4) Dark Mind is in need of update, mitigating only magic damage no longer makes sense

Despite having a large number of people complaining and bring back attention to these issues nothing has been done.

... It doesn't measure up to Shake It Off or Divine Veil for the same reason that Heavy Swing doesn't measure up to Goring Blade: they shouldn't be compared like that. ...

Or comparing costs on a healer to a tank, I get it. I'm also not going to pull damage dealer dps, I accept that as well. I accept that things have a cost, I don't get how a class with only 2 native cooldowns and 1 utility has a such a high cost on that utility when its equivalents are swimming in free cooldowns.

I appriciate that you feel for us, but realize telling us that "every class has costs" is ignoring the issues on this job when compared to what jobs filling a similar role do. And that isn't helping when dark knights have these conversations. Because the time spent defending ourselves that there is a problem is coordination time wasted.

[WhyAmIHere]

With DRK, nobody can really agree on what is the part that needs the most help, so there's no real way to determine how to get it up to scratch. TBN is, at the moment, the only advantage DRK has.

An advantage that is overshadowed by how utterly unreliable it really is in content. for "5" seconds you can mitigate either 20% of your HP as a barrier on yourself, or 10% of your HP on an ally. For a quarter of your MP. Every ~20 seconds.
If it didn't cost as much, then it might be better to use, as it wouldn't put people in a position to decide "do I TBN, or use DA?" If it's timer was at least like 7 or so seconds, then it could mitigate more than just a single TB.

People complained that SiO was bad, and it was changed. People are complaining that DRK's in a bad way, and realistically *nothing* has been done to address this. This is where the contempt on this forum is coming from.
We're a tank that cannot mitigate damage as well as our counterparts, a tank that cannot deal as much damage as our counterparts, and a tank that has clunkier gameplay compared to our counterparts. Blackblood is a lackluster mechanic. TBN is a lackluster ult, both in use and design. DA and Darkside has become an inhibiting gimmick our job is held back by due to "class balance and fantasy."

Yes, it can "clear content" just as easily as every other job. So could SMN/SCH, and yet they got sustain back after much public outcry. So can monk, even though they're in similar straights to DRK as far as being addressed by the devs go. Same can be said about WHM, whose kit is still clunky as balls with the lily mechanic.

SE wanted to shake things up with SB. Too bad some of the ingredients fell out onto the floor, and only a few have been picked up thus far.

[Ekimmak]

Your asterisk implies that in fact we don't need everyone just "enough" people.
I think most people would agree on the following:
1) Dark passenger is trash
2) Shadow Wall has too long a recast time
3) Delirium is underwhelming as a buff
4) Dark Mind is in need of update, mitigating only magic damage no longer makes sense

Despite having a large number of people complaining and bring back attention to these issues nothing has been done.

Eh, I'm bitter about that change. It was actually good for some things, that just didn't happen to be savage content or dungeons. Now I don't have that option anymore.

And just because everyone agrees on those things, doesn't mean they agree on what needs to be done to bring DRK up to the level of the other two tanks. I've been watching a lot of the DRK threads, and there is very little consensus about what changes DRK needs. One person says "we shouldn't be afraid to ask for things that would make us needed", another says "these changes are over the top, the dev team won't take our issues seriously if we ask for this". This is taken out of context, yes, but it still highlights that nobody can agree on what Dark NEEDS to become viable, as opposed to what is holding it back.

Despite actually playing DRK all the way to Omega 3 Savage on farm (ignore this character's DRK level, I'm talking about an alt), I don't actually have an opinion of what should be done to fix it. I know something is wrong, but it works for the content I can play, so I don't see the negatives as overwhelmingly obvious.

[Chrono_Rising]

Eh, I'm bitter about that change. It was actually good for some things, that just didn't happen to be savage content or dungeons. Now I don't have that option anymore.

And just because everyone agrees on those things, doesn't mean they agree on what needs to be done to bring DRK up to the level of the other two tanks. I've been watching a lot of the DRK threads, and there is very little consensus about what changes DRK needs. One person says "we shouldn't be afraid to ask for things that would make us needed", another says "these changes are over the top, the dev team won't take our issues seriously if we ask for this". This is taken out of context, yes, but it still highlights that nobody can agree on what Dark NEEDS to become viable, as opposed to what is holding it back.

Despite actually playing DRK all the way to Omega 3 Savage on farm (ignore this character's DRK level, I'm talking about an alt), I don't actually have an opinion of what should be done to fix it. I know something is wrong, but it works for the content I can play, so I don't see the negatives as overwhelmingly obvious.

I hate to be that guy, but it isn't my job to hand SE a fix. It's my job as a player to tell them what isn't working, I can suggest things, but it is in no way my job to design their product. If warrior's had to have consensus on a raid shield then they wouldn't have gotten it. If dragoons had to have consensus that their skills needed to be raised 10 potency, lower their naitive buff, and lower the number of eye uses to 3, then those things wouldn't have happened.

And most people agree on what you could do at the base to fix some of the issues I listed.

Lower the cooldown on Shadow wall or lengthen its duration.

Raise the potency on dark passenger so it has a higher priority over dark arts.

Dark Mind should mitigate all damage now considering it is already weaker than the equivalents just by fact of being a vulnerability decrease.

Despite the higher bar of getting buffs, we have met it on many occasions. There are some wilder flavor to these ideas, sure, but at the minimum we agree that those things would fix the problem, I again cannot stress this enough, this is not a bar we should be responsible for meeting.

If we as players are expected to design and balance their classes then I would love to sit down and negotiate my contract, benefits, and pay.

[rjspencer4]

create new job: "Darker Knight"

[WhyAmIHere]

Eh, I'm bitter about that change. It was actually good for some things, that just didn't happen to be savage content or dungeons. Now I don't have that option anymore.

And just because everyone agrees on those things, doesn't mean they agree on what needs to be done to bring DRK up to the level of the other two tanks. I've been watching a lot of the DRK threads, and there is very little consensus about what changes DRK needs. One person says "we shouldn't be afraid to ask for things that would make us needed", another says "these changes are over the top, the dev team won't take our issues seriously if we ask for this". This is taken out of context, yes, but it still highlights that nobody can agree on what Dark NEEDS to become viable, as opposed to what is holding it back.

Despite actually playing DRK all the way to Omega 3 Savage on farm (ignore this character's DRK level, I'm talking about an alt), I don't actually have an opinion of what should be done to fix it. I know something is wrong, but it works for the content I can play, so I don't see the negatives as overwhelmingly obvious.

I mean, at least you acknowledge that the class needs help, which is more than can be said for the community at large. That "It can clear content" is such a trash argument.

The reason why no one can reach consensus on what to fix/address is because there's just so much that can be looked at, and many branching questions from "what's wrong?" Our DPS is bad: how do we fix it without overpowering the class? Our mitigation is bad: how can that be fixed without overshadowing the other two tanks (funny how SiO p.much has done exactly that now)? Our resource cost/management is dysfunctional: how do we streamline it? Our kit is lackluster overall: in what ways?

There's a lot of variables, and I honestly sympathize with the dev team because there's a lot that can go horribly, horribly wrong.

But, and this is the biggest kick in the pants: tanks are a small community, and even within this small community the divide between "___ mains" is clear as day. This is only going to become more exacerbated as more time goes on with this imbalance with the tanks, perceived or otherwise. It's a situation where a small, yet essential, subset of the playerbase is not happy, and their only options are to move to another branch within their current community (i.e. DRK's that either jump to WAR/PLD, or go to healer/DPS, or even let their sub lapse), or keep hoping against hope and continue to raise awareness for the issue, even in the face of "DRK is fine, it can clear content" dismissing comments.

[Ekimmak]

I mean, at least you acknowledge that the class needs help, which is more than can be said for the community at large. That "It can clear content" is such a trash argument.

I apologise if I've offended, I don't use that "I can clear content with it" as a reason to deny buffs. Despite raiding savage, I'm well aware that I'm a mediocre player at best.