PVP Rank and PVP Experience Change

[Geryth]

But remember the Warlord title? I do and it was something that people strived for. It unlocked a specific amount of gear that you could buy while you had the title. But even if you came across a warlord you could still stomp them into the ground even if they had better gear. Of course you may not want to catch them 1v1 but PvP is group play and its all about strategy. Premades are what sucked. You could be a warlord and go up against a premade in any of the modes and get utterly crushed. FFXIV is the same way. It is about the team and not the individual so even including gear progression wouldn't necessarily change anything. Because a solid team could take down someone who outgears them..

A few really good points here, actually. As Alliance, it was the prestigious Grand Marshal (I only got up to Lieutenant Commander). But while there was "progression" to the vanilla PvP gear it was only on the merit of the ranking you could get, and that ranking took a crazy amount of time to get (and grand marshal was awarded only once a week to the single top player). The PvP gear, really, was more of a function of how much time you played PvP for glamour purposes - it was not a way to get gear (this is probably why they changed to the Arena progression gear system later). You geared for PvP by doing PvE for the most part, aside from a few things like the anti-stun trinkets.

But to your points - the modes really made a lot more sense for that. 10vs10 capture the flag, 15vs15 king of the hill were tighter maps with straight forward objectives that wasn't too hard to get a group for to get some Honor points and wins. Still, being the recluse I am, I always solo'd same as I do in FFXIV, so it was hard going at times and premades were frustrating losses. But yes, you could overcome a gear disadvantage by outplaying your opponents and getting a solid PvP group to cooperate with which was the way to do that, and it was quite feasible because WoW never had a participation problem.

But in FFXIV you have 4v4 deathmatch with a broken comeback mechanic built into the medal system, with no chat or cooperation, and no grouping or team play. Frontlines is a messy 72 man zergfest with slightly random PvE mechanics, and it's like herding cats trying to be a team leader. There is some grouping for cooperation there, but it's not like you can get a full 24 man party easily.

Saying that out loud really highlights part of our problem I think. FFXIV needs smaller maps with straight forward mechanics, conducive for group play (ie. not feast). Then remove the participation issue and then progression-gear PvP can be a rewarding thing that works.

I need to stop thinking about it, the more I do the more I realize that WoW really had it's act together for this stuff way long ago. I was stuck thinking in the bubble that FFXIV is currently in where the system as it currently is makes sense. I failed to look at what it could be if we opened up the design space. Progression gear PvP can be rewarding and fun and implemented properly, but would break FFXIV if shoved in the non-chat non-group feast, and a few veterans would absolutely bully and destroy newbies in Frontlines - where it's not like they can just go grab 23 friends and beat you with cooperation.

And progression-gear PvP is the easiest way to put it in a solid footing to stand as end-game content because then it can get content updates as regular as PvE.

All that said, I can see a good working progression-gear system being good for this game. I don't think it's absolutely necessary and I wouldn't be saddened in the least if they intend to keep normalized stats for the time being, but if they do then they really need to amp up the PvP rewards in a clever way that incentivizes repeat queuing.

[Synestra]

FFXIV needs smaller maps with straight forward mechanics, conducive for group play (ie. not feast).

Not only it could use slightly smaller maps but it really needs smaller player size, 24 was and still is best size when it comes to FL, maybe 48 for secure but 72 is just too much. I still don't understand why they removed 48 instead 72 ;__;

[Geryth]

Not only it could use slightly smaller maps but it really needs smaller player size, 24 was and still is best size when it comes to FL, maybe 48 for secure but 72 is just too much. I still don't understand why they removed 48 instead 72 ;__;

I dunno - 8v8v8 IS more fun than 24v24v24, but I feel like the maps are still too big for 8v8v8. I would prefer that we scale down the map size of Secure and Seal Rock and get rid of the GC shtick and have 8v8 or 12v12.