Dusting off the Tome: Summoner Feedback for 4.1

[Ariomi]

This. Mechanical issues with summoner aside, the most recent changes put it seriously out of balance.
SMN *should* be sitting at the brd/mch damage tier. Played properly they bring near-equivalent support options.

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17...46&timespan=60

If you look at this, (feel free to toggle between the fights) Summoner is almost always consistently in the middle.

The highest parses of samurai/Blm in o1s for example are around 6,355.4
Monks were able to hit around 6.2k
Machinists were able to reach 6,045
While Summoner's highest parse in o1s seems just short of 6k.

In o2s, blm has the highest damage parse, of 6,231.7 dps, surpassing samurai, while summoner's are at 5,912.

Continually looking at the graph, Summoner's can pull good numbers, however, they never fully beat the damage potential of other classes.
the top Samurai is at 5,864 dps for v4s, while summoner's stays at 5,200 level.

Also if you look, Machinist beats summoner in several fights, (not by much.) Machinist being able to add around 100 more dps in fights like o1s and neo. So if you think Summoner should be sitting at the mch damage tier, well... they are already there.

[MauvaisOeil]

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17...46&timespan=60

If you look at this, (feel free to toggle between the fights) Summoner is almost always consistently in the middle.

The highest parses of samurai/Blm in o1s for example are around 6,355.4
Monks were able to hit around 6.2k
Machinists were able to reach 6,045
While Summoner's highest parse in o1s seems just short of 6k.

In o2s, blm has the highest damage parse, of 6,231.7 dps, surpassing samurai, while summoner's are at 5,912.

Continually looking at the graph, Summoner's can pull good numbers, however, they never fully beat the damage potential of other classes.
the top Samurai is at 5,864 dps for v4s, while summoner's stays at 5,200 level.

Also if you look, Machinist beats summoner in several fights, (not by much.) Machinist being able to add around 100 more dps in fights like o1s and neo. So if you think Summoner should be sitting at the mch damage tier, well... they are already there.

Theses are max parses : IE : setup made to obtain the highest score possible with all buff focused on the player.

Use percentile to gather datas and observe the drastic increase of SMN DPS since the launch of 4.1.

like : https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=99&boss=46&timespan=60 for the 99 percentile

Or https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=90&boss=46&timespan=60 For the 90 percentile, both beeing datas of high parsed players but NOT the actual maximum parsed (which is crap).

[Ariomi]

Theses are max parses : IE : setup made to obtain the highest score possible with all buff focused on the player.

The max parses are actually better representative of a classes maximum dps potential.

I'll tell you why. When you look at the max, and not lower percentiles, it's not as skewed. Bard has 27,000 parses, and looking at the max percentile gives the most accurate damage potential. We can see what the highest they can do, instead of how the numbers average in percentile between 27,000 different parses.

If Summoner's were as overpowered as people claim, why can't a max fed summoner overtake a blm? You can look in o1s and see a smn struggles to get past 6k dps. Blms have higher damage potential cause they start over 6.1k dps and rise to 6.3k dps.

Summoner's max damage output stays relatively the same too. It doesn't jump up or down in numbers as wildly. For overall damage potential, Summoner is fine as Blm's can do 300-400 more dps then them, but summoner does more dps then red mage. A small nerf, that brings Summoner quality of life changes would be fine, but overall, they are right in the middle when it comes to overall damage potential -- how it should be.

[Karshan]

Actually there's a thing in statistics that's called quotas, to know how many samples are required to make the results representative of the entire population.

So the average are not so skewed for the quotas are met for every job.

I agree though that max DPS shows the limits of the classes, BUT max parse is only a few singular experiments. The conditions may vary from the Max BLM (might have gotten 60% balance solo uptime) and the max SMN (might have gotten 40% balance party uptime). So if you compare two unique experiments, you have to normalize to a global set of parameters that are equals. Good luck with that.

All other percentiles however, show how SMN got buffed all along the patch. Like, waayy buffed. Which wasn't needed, when you see what Eirene was doing in i314 on a dummy. The power was there, all that was needed was simplification/QoL to make it achievable to a greater portion of SMNs.

[KumiKuzumi]

Idk I'm fine with how smn has become and bahamut being the way it is. It only adds to the depth of the job. You get used to it and it's satisfying done properly. Dps wise it's where it should be above the utility dps (drg nin mch bard). Comparing smn utility to theirs the damage is justified. The only balance that needs to happen is increase to sam and blm by like 5%-7%. And maybe make monk less rng dependent cause it has potential yet the averages aren't as high as it should be for just brotherhood utility.

[Dualgunner]

Dps wise it's where it should be above the utility dps (drg nin mch bard). Comparing smn utility to theirs the damage is justified. The only balance that needs to happen is increase to sam and blm by like 5%-7%. And maybe make monk less rng dependent cause it has potential yet the averages aren't as high as it should be for just brotherhood utility.

But that's power creep, if I remember the outcry about RDM at 4.0 launch correctly.

It's also a bit weird to say "SMN is where it should be dps wise" but then say that SAM and BLM, who it outdoes, need buffs. Buffing them is still moving SMN's place on the totem pole.

"Comparing their utility the damage is justified"
I recall seeing it matched out that radiant shield is almost as good as embolden. Then summoner has contagion too, and on top of that devotion which is a dps and healing buff. Of all the dps you mentioned I believe the only dps utility still stronger is NIN with trick attack.

[MauvaisOeil]

The max parses are actually better representative of a classes maximum dps potential.

I'll tell you why. When you look at the max, and not lower percentiles, it's not as skewed. Bard has 27,000 parses, and looking at the max percentile gives the most accurate damage potential. We can see what the highest they can do, instead of how the numbers average in percentile between 27,000 different parses.

If Summoner's were as overpowered as people claim, why can't a max fed summoner overtake a blm? You can look in o1s and see a smn struggles to get past 6k dps. Blms have higher damage potential cause they start over 6.1k dps and rise to 6.3k dps.

Summoner's max damage output stays relatively the same too. It doesn't jump up or down in numbers as wildly. For overall damage potential, Summoner is fine as Blm's can do 300-400 more dps then them, but summoner does more dps then red mage. A small nerf, that brings Summoner quality of life changes would be fine, but overall, they are right in the middle when it comes to overall damage potential -- how it should be.

Nope it's not. Job with less iteration of damage tend to be more impacted by rng, offering then more possibility of higher parse and lower parse. Which blm is with one dot and long and big bursty nukes.

On the opposite, smn has numerous iteration of damage due to two dots, one pet and one caster, meaning rng streaks are softened and spread around many simultaneous damage iterations, meaning a SMN with an optimal gameplay will never go as high neither as down as a BLM. But is way less hindered by movement.

The max dps fishing also include that a BLM will not move out of non lethal aoes to maintain chain casting, at the cost of healers gcd, mp and thus raid dps.

Basically what you do is taking one parse per job over thousands and call them "Dps potential of jobs", while they are biaised by specific and non reallistic parameters.

What should be used, are percentile, as they reflect a population and not a single parse.

recall seeing it matched out that radiant shield is almost as good as embolden

radiant shield is far superior in 8 mans in any content with frequent aoe. Enjoy your 400 potency damage each time your raid is hit.

[KumiKuzumi]

"Comparing their utility the damage is justified"
I recall seeing it matched out that radiant shield is almost as good as embolden. Then summoner has contagion too, and on top of that devotion which is a dps and healing buff. Of all the dps you mentioned I believe the only dps utility still stronger is NIN with trick attack.

Bard and mch both offer over 500 more raid dps than smn. And yes combining radiant shield and devotion. Trick attack is even better and drg slightly worse. Than that value. The 2% devotion with 15/120 sec uptime and 2% phy buff on the shield don't offer as much as ppl seem to assume. That is why I say smn dmg is justified and it's the pure selfish dps in blm and sam that are weak atm

[MauvaisOeil]

Bard and mch both offer over 500 more raid dps than smn. And yes combining radiant shield and devotion. Trick attack is even better and drg slightly worse. Than that value. The 2% devotion with 15/120 sec uptime and 2% phy buff on the shield don't offer as much as ppl seem to assume. That is why I say smn dmg is justified and it's the pure selfish dps in blm and sam that are weak atm

That's not the 2% on radiant that is op. It's the fact each time an AOE hit your raid with radiant shield up, you get 50 potency per character damage, which is 400 potency.

[Remedi]

That's not exactly it as the dmg of radiant shield is actually calculated off STR/DEX of the character that does the counterattack unless my tests are incorrect, but that aside the dmg of radiant shield is about 2% or something of the whole SMN dmg in a fight like o3s

that is unless senility has finally caught up to me and I'm remembering the logs I envisioned wrongly, but I'm fairly sure that radiant shield was doing 69 dmg from me and around 600 from a friend MCH