4.1 Dark Knight Feedback and fixes

[Chrono_Rising]

I think if we had at least 8 seconds of a double damage buff the numbers would work out to be more favorable to Dark Knight.

A short but powerful buff window could be all we need for our dps.

[Aana]

Snip

Problems:
1. Minor, but you didn't discount the AAs and Sword oath AAs from the holy spirit cast spam section. (No AA's while casting)

2. You count zerk which inflates IR. You are taking half of berserk's independent bonus to war and applying it to IR combining them and saying look at IR! It does so much damage! Zerk is its own buff. If you are gonna compare 1 to 1 vacuum then take it out. If you are going to include zerk then include both zerk windows in your 2 minutes and add in the base bonus from blood weapon every 40 sec and FoF. The alternative would be to apply zerk to the combo damage and avg FC useage for +30% to your baseline that gets subtracted out instead of taking buffed zerk IR and subtracting the unbuffed no-zerk base rotation. Zerk is getting used regardless of IR's existence. The way you did it just inflates IR.

I wont repeat my opinions about vacuum comparisons. But if youre going to do a vacuum then do a vacuum.

[Chrono_Rising]

Problems:
1. Minor, but you didn't discount the AAs and Sword oath AAs from the holy spirit cast spam section. (No AA's while casting)

2. You count zerk which inflates IR. You are taking half of berserk's independent bonus to war and applying it to IR combining them and saying look at IR! It does so much damage! Zerk is its own buff. If you are gonna compare 1 to 1 vacuum then take it out. If you are going to include zerk then include both zerk windows in your 2 minutes and add in the base bonus from blood weapon every 40 sec and FoF. The alternative would be to apply zerk to the combo damage and avg FC useage for +30% to your baseline that gets subtracted out instead of taking buffed zerk IR and subtracting the unbuffed no-zerk base rotation. Zerk is getting used regardless of IR's existence. The way you did it just inflates IR.

I wont repeat my opinions about vacuum comparisons. But if youre going to do a vacuum then do a vacuum.

1) You cannot autoattack during casts, but you do have a window in which you can auto attack, I've used this trick before even to block in the down time between casts. So this is not as cut and dry as you think.

2) The analysis is more complicated, but you absolutely have to include buffs when doing these calculations unless you are trying to make something less than it is. However, I think I have a simple suggestion which would clear this up. Why not do the same analysis for warrior's potency during a berserk window with inner release and a berserk window without inner release. This would control for the potency gain better than the average combo potency.

[Aana]

1) You cannot autoattack during casts, but you do have a window in which you can auto attack, I've used this trick before even to block in the down time between casts. So this is not as cut and dry as you think.

2) The analysis is more complicated, but you absolutely have to include buffs when doing these calculations unless you are trying to make something less than it is. However, I think I have a simple suggestion which would clear this up. Why not do the same analysis for warrior's potency during a berserk window with inner release and a berserk window without inner release. This would control for the potency gain better than the average combo potency.

1. True. But 'holding' a GCD for an AA would almost never be a good move. How well AAs fits in the windows would depend on your AA rotation at that particular moment which is functionally random (SS determines when you get there in 1st rotation, fight mechanics and disengage time randomize it further later in a fight). There is some average amount of delayed AAs you would miss casting 1.5sec of every 2.5 (since you dont even need to account for skill speed) for 5 gcds. Every lv 70 sword is 2.24. Even if you did an auto at the instant of your 1st cast start, your next AA goes off, but the 4th gets pushed .05 sec and then you loose .26 sec on every AA after being pushed to match the 2.5 timer after that. Best case you loose about .31 AA timer. Worst case you atk timer right after start of 1st spirit, loose 1.5 sec, then get put on a 2.5 sec rotation for all 5 being about 2.54 sec of lost time on an AA timer of 1.24. So about 2.13 AAs.

TLDR: Best case you loose ~15% of an AA. Worst case you loose 115% of an AA. Assuming the timer is fairly random (you don't hold GCDs and just take the AA where it lands) you probably loose ~65% of an AA. Toss in sword oath (AA=175 pot), and its around 113 pot per req window on avg from AAs. If im counting right. Not dramatic but worth putting in.

2. Comparing an ideal zerk window to an ideal zerk+IR window would be a better comparison than flat rotation zerk potency. Good call.

Edit: Fixed AA numbers and added some analysis.

Edit 2:

No both beserk windows should be idealized for the warrior’s rotation. The difference is what is due to IR.

My bad, typo. Muddled my sentence. Was supposed to be 'Compare an ideal zerk window to an ideal zerk+IR window.' Fixd.

[Chrono_Rising]

No both beserk windows should be idealized for the warrior’s rotation. The difference is what is due to IR.

Now irrelevant rant just typo. (I find it some what funny that you don’t argue the Dark Knight buffs shouldn’t be applied during their windows. I guess lowering g the Dark Knight numbers would also run counter to your agenda. You claim to not like people making a big deal out of things and you’ve claimed the same deal about warrior, yet when i look back at your entire post historythe onlynpeople you fight against are dark knights. You have no relevant post history for the warrior buffs. What really is your motive here, just trying to sow discord and keep Dark Knight quiet so that warrior’s place in statics isn’t threatened?)

[ULoki]

No both beserk windows should be idealized for the warrior’s rotation. The difference is what is due to IR.

I find it some what funny that you don’t argue the Dark Knight buffs shouldn’t be applied during their windows. I guess lowering g the Dark Knight numbers would also run counter to your agenda. You claim to not like people making a big deal out of things and you’ve claimed the same deal about warrior, yet when i look back at your entire post historythe onlynpeople you fight against are dark knights. You have no relevant post history for the warrior buffs. What really is your motive here, just trying to sow discord and keep Dark Knight quiet so that warrior’s place in statics isn’t threatened?

Dun dun dun...

the plot thickens

[Aana]

I find it some what funny that you don’t argue the Dark Knight buffs shouldn’t be applied during their windows. I guess lowering g the Dark Knight numbers would also run counter to your agenda. You claim to not like people making a big deal out of things and you’ve claimed the same deal about warrior, yet when i look back at your entire post historythe onlynpeople you fight against are dark knights. You have no relevant post history for the warrior buffs. What really is your motive here, just trying to sow discord and keep Dark Knight quiet so that warrior’s place in statics isn’t threatened?

The self stated 'goal' was a vacuum comparison. The other option would be to include zerk (both windows) and also include FoF+Blood weapon, but then you might as well just do a full DPS comparison. Vacuum would be to remove all of those, so I didn't mention it. I don't like vacuum comparisons. I think they are utterly useless comparing apples to oranges to potatoes to pizza. But if your going to do them, do them right. If he left out something that helps Drk that I missed, please point it out. The goal was a fair vacuum. If you can help with that, by all means. I could have very well overlooked something.

War's place isn't threatened. It is a very well designed job. People have pointed to war as a 'job done right' since 2.1. I have no insecurity about war falling off the boat because drk gets buffed, or doesn't, or pld is better, or isn't. Its a well designed class with a strong foundation, theme, and play. No potency changes are threatening the core of a well designed job. The fact that I enjoyed playing warrior since 2.0 when it was bad doesn't invalidate my points just because the class I play has been in pretty good states since 2.1 overall. I play both drk and war, I just like war more as I always have since 2.0. That doesn't prevent me from wanting to play a balanced version that fits how I would like to play it any more than anyone else on these boards whenever I hop on my own drk.

[Chrono_Rising]

Nah just over reacted to the typo, felt like I was being misrepresented to make a point. My apologies.

[Crater]

Inner Release is specifically designed such that it is always used with Berserk, and all of the effective gauge created by the skill is consumed during Berserk.

Requiescat is specifically designed such that it must be used opposite Fight or Flight, as one is physical and one is magical apart from the initial hit.

Delirium, "in a vacuum", is a net gain of 4.4 potency every two minutes, with no skill to extend.


Use some common sense - if you don't know that these are the expected use cases for each of these skills, you have no business in this thread, and should be soaking up information in a "teach me to tank" newbie thread.

[Aana]

Inner Release is specifically designed such that it is always used with Berserk, and all of the effective gauge created by the skill is consumed during Berserk.

Requiescat is specifically designed such that it must be used opposite Fight or Flight, as one is physical and one is magical apart from the initial hit.

Delirium, "in a vacuum", is a net gain of 4.4 potency every two minutes, with no skill to extend.


Use some common sense - if you don't know that these are the expected use cases for each of these skills, you have no business in this thread, and should be soaking up information in a "teach me to tank" newbie thread.

IR is intended with zerk, but zerk also stands alone. Delirium is designed to work with BW, but BW stands alone on its own merits as well. Why not include the entirety of the BW you extend by that logic?

That's why vacuum comparisons aren't helpful. You have to make assumptions where to cut the cord in a web of interaction.

IR is not an equivalent to delirium. Blood is not the same as BG or Oath gauge. FoF is not blood weapon. Pld MP =/= Drk MP. All these interact in different ways. They are a part of a whole which is the job. Cutting them out to stand next to each other alone doesn't tell us anything useful. Just ammunition for arguments built on sand.