Should Divine Benison be improved?

[Tridus]

Apologies if I came across as condescending. To be clear, I wasn't directing my comments at everyone, but I also didn't wish to target anyone; obviously that's a tough line to walk because I can't foresee how others will perceive it. Asylum has been singled out a few times in just this thread, including in a comparison to Sacred Soil and Collective Unconscious, and two of the handful of active threads in this subforum are about targeted buffs to WHM abilities with the justification that someone else has something.

I'm one of those people targeting Asylum, but more because Asylum is something I hardly ever use than anything else. Honestly if you removed it from my bar, it'd be several encounters before I noticed (unlike something like Assize, where id't take ten seconds). I'm not sure I'd care, either.

I spend most of my time in the DF, and Asylum is barely worth using in most of the content in the DF. It's biggest problem vs SS & CU is that unlike those two, you have to stay in it for an extended amount of time for it to do anything of consequence. Even on an encounter that doesn't have people moving often enough to make that a fools errand, you can't trust people in the DF to stay in it. They'll wander off to wherever they want to be, and now it was a waste of clicks to put it up . I mean, it'll work fine on the tank pretty much all the time, but "more tank healing" is not exactly something WHM is in need of. I certainly won't use it when I might want to use DB soon, because it just burned all my lilies and now I can't cast DB. That could be fixed without changing what Asylum does by having it put a HoT up when you enter it, so it keeps working if you leave.

Maybe it's better at the bleeding edge of content, but if the only time something is particularly good is when the top 2% are doing it, that's kind of a problem... especially when PI is already in that boat. And that's setting aside that when said bleeding edge stuff is already solo healable within a month of it coming out, who needs more healing? One healer doing the job of two suggests pretty strongly that there's more than enough healing to go around, more of it that's a hassle to get full effect from is redundant.

On the substance I think we're largely on the same page. My biggest concern, as you noted, is the development of a "mitigate-or-die" healing meta. Design trends can easily become embedded in the development cycles and entrenched in the community's mindset. It's far more palatable to scale things back than to completely revamp or remove them, which is why I vehemently come out against any suggestion to add more shielding or mitigation. Power creep over the life of an expansion is inevitable. One stat affects non-tank survivability (VIT) while multiple affect our throughput. As we get more and more gear our healing output relative to health pools will continue to rise. This naturally favors mitigation, while WHM's core strengths are already in a precarious spot.

This I agree with, but it's SE's doing. When you have bursty damage, the biggest risk is someone dying before you have a chance to heal them. When you can get someone from 1% to 100% in seconds, stopping damage from happening is vastly more powerful than being able to heal it faster than you already can. Rabanstre has a couple of things like that where you take damage and get a DoT and the first DoT tick is likely to kill you, unless you're shielded, in which case you may get a second one. No amount of "more healing" is better than the extra time you get from that shield letting the person live an additional tick (my favorite is when 2 or 3 people get it and the other healer doesn't have Esuna, fun times).

They probably could design encounters that favor WHM's sustained HPS throughput more, but they don't. At this point, I'm not sure I expect them to until another expansion brings another round of ability rebalancing, perhaps with an eye to nerfing healing potency so it's less necessary to burst everyone for huge damage in order to threaten them. As it stands right now, the "mitigate or die" meta is coming around because the game favors mitigion, as the mitigation healers also have enough HPS to recover everyone after they mitigate fast enough that doing it faster doesn't matter.

For examining current capabilities I don't think there are too many relevant encounters other than O4S and perhaps Shinryu. The former is a fight which actually favors WHM's capabilities because you can spend so much time stacked and Almagest is a match made in heaven for Cure III. And yet, it was first solo-healed by an AST (very soon after release, I'll add). This gets to the core of the problem which I was trying to articulate: healing (/shielding/mit) in general is so powerful that the strengths of WHM are virtually irrelevant. Asylum's seeming weakness is more a function of a lack of need more than a specific problem with the ability's design. It's "just more healing" on a Job which has it in spades. So the issues I see here are: (1) the game offers few opportunities to showcase the healing differential WHM benefits from, and (2) even when it does provide those opportunities, AST can just AOE Bole + Collective + shield through it. Healing? How quaint. Why bother with the stress? The same for basically every one of WHM's strong points. Take MP economy. No question, it's there. But between the Ewer, the ability to extend Lucid Dreaming's duration (a double insult given this was originally WHM's ability), Light Speed, and then the potential presence of SMN/BLM MP batteries or a BRD, well, what's so good about WHM, again?

Yep, agreed.

So would I mind seeing Asylum changed, say, so that the HOT persists when people walk out of it? Not really. Would I mind seeing it turned, say, into a copy/paste of Sacred Soil? You bet. But in any case it's just more band-aids on band-aids on band-aids to a Job that's been stitched back together after multiple dismemberments. If your ship's springing leaks left and right, sure, you can just plug them as they come and carry on. But eventually you're either going to need a few months in dry dock or you're going to sink.

Yep. I think we're mostly on the same page. I don't want Asylum to be the same as what everyone else has, either. Why have three healing jobs if they're effectively identical? I do want a reason to push the button more often. That's in comparison to DB (the topic of the thread), because aside from the nuisance lily requirement, I already use that one frequently and it does something useful without being a carbon copy of everyone else.

[Kabzy]

I'm one of those people targeting Asylum

I'm not too sure on this one. Compared to the other two healers, Asylum is much easier to use and totals at a potency of 800 which is definitely a GCD or two saved in healing. It's basically a tank HoT in most scenarios, but that's still a good tool to have. ASTs bubble is great, but it has very limited use. You can pretty much only use it when everyone needs to stack and also you'll only keep it up if nothing is targetable. Otherwise it's basically used like a point blank Asylum, which is not always convenient. SCH loses to both in the battle of the bubbles because their one is flat out useless unless it actually mitigates a death. Being tied to AF means it's in competition with abilities that are better than it in most scenarios.

Maybe it's better at the bleeding edge of content, but if the only time something is particularly good is when the top 2% are doing it, that's kind of a problem... especially when PI is already in that boat.

I've actually been a little baffled at this, but I can actually understand why WHMs have complained about PI so much. When you look at their HW additions, WHMs got abilities that were useful in a general sense. I'm a SCH main, and when HW hit 3/5 of our new abilities were pretty much linked to raiding only. Both tactics and Dissipation were extremely situational in casual content and really shined as tools in raids. I'm not 100% sure about other jobs, but based on that alone I can say that it's not unheard of for a job to get abilities that may only have uses in higher end content. So I don't really see Plenary as a 'problem'. You might not see it being used all the time, but it has proven its use in Savage, mainly 04s.

[Tridus]

I'm not too sure on this one. Compared to the other two healers, Asylum is much easier to use and totals at a potency of 800 which is definitely a GCD or two saved in healing. It's basically a tank HoT in most scenarios, but that's still a good tool to have. ASTs bubble is great, but it has very limited use. You can pretty much only use it when everyone needs to stack and also you'll only keep it up if nothing is targetable. Otherwise it's basically used like a point blank Asylum, which is not always convenient. SCH loses to both in the battle of the bubbles because their one is flat out useless unless it actually mitigates a death. Being tied to AF means it's in competition with abilities that are better than it in most scenarios.

As a tank HoT, Aslyum works. WHM already has a tank HoT, though, and two of them if you're using Medica II. A third one that has a side effect of temporarily locking out DB (unless you use it after DB) is not exactly very interesting. I'd probably enjoy it more if they changed it to "everyone standing in this gains 10% skill/spell speed", because it'd let me fling rocks faster.

CU and SS are more limited use, but they do very useful things in those situations, stacking isn't exactly uncommon, and they don't require the party to stand still for the entire duration to work. I mean, SS *could*, if you used it as a tank mitigation, but then it's doing something better than Asylum with the same limitations.

I've actually been a little baffled at this, but I can actually understand why WHMs have complained about PI so much. When you look at their HW additions, WHMs got abilities that were useful in a general sense. I'm a SCH main, and when HW hit 3/5 of our new abilities were pretty much linked to raiding only. Both tactics and Dissipation were extremely situational in casual content and really shined as tools in raids. I'm not 100% sure about other jobs, but based on that alone I can say that it's not unheard of for a job to get abilities that may only have uses in higher end content. So I don't really see Plenary as a 'problem'. You might not see it being used all the time, but it has proven its use in Savage, mainly 04s.

Keep in mind that we're on the second version of PI now. WHMs complained about the first version so much because it required spamming Cure to get confessions at a 20% rate, and would only heal targets with confessions... which meant it was effectively a tank heal. There's been far less complaining since it was changed to be usable. It works fine now, it's just something that only really shines at the bleeding edge. And that's fine. Those buttons are going to exist. I'd rather see fewer of them than more, of course. (Probably one of the reasons I dislike SCH is just how many buttons feel that way, where you're constantly juggling all these situational things. For those who enjoy that style of gameplay, great!)

[Miste]

The former is a fight which actually favors WHM's capabilities because you can spend so much time stacked and Almagest is a match made in heaven for Cure III. And yet, it was first solo-healed by an AST (very soon after release, I'll add). This gets to the core of the problem which I was trying to articulate: healing (/shielding/mit) in general is so powerful that the strengths of WHM are virtually irrelevant.

How does an AST solo healing O4S make WHM irrelevant when 99% of groups cannot solo heal O4S? I mean we cannot base the game difficulty or job balance based on the <1% of insanely good 99th percentile players who are capable of doing a fight in a way that the devs didn't intend.

I mean maybe the devs will make the next savage tier so hard to heal that no one can solo heal it to make sure no healer has a "soloable" advantage over another healer (even though like I said barely anyone in this game is capable of taking advantage of that during progression or before nerfs and echo), but guess what is going to happen? A lot of midcore groups won't even be able to clear it with two healers.

It's "just more healing" on a Job which has it in spades. So the issues I see here are: (1) the game offers few opportunities to showcase the healing differential WHM benefits from, and (2) even when it does provide those opportunities, AST can just AOE Bole + Collective + shield through it. Healing? How quaint. Why bother with the stress?

Why bother with healing? Because that is how WHM plays?

WHM heals through the damage with less mitigation.
Noct AST uses mitigation for the damage with less healing.

It is simply two different styles of "keeping the party alive" that accomplish the same thing in the end. I mean do we want all healers to just be able to do the same thing? Make them into carbon copies of each other just because one AST solo healed O4S.

Also the game is designed with two healers working in tandem using the two above healing styles.

Take MP economy. No question, it's there. But between the Ewer, the ability to extend Lucid Dreaming's duration (a double insult given this was originally WHM's ability), Light Speed, and then the potential presence of SMN/BLM MP batteries or a BRD, well, what's so good about WHM, again?

AST does not use Ewer for MP unless a large amount of deaths are happening and eating MP or if the AST themselves dies and even if you did need an Ewer there is zero guarantee you will get one when you need it because it is RNG. No good AST will Spread an Ewer and hold on to it either. Using Ewer for MP has a pretty bad detriment because you aren't use it to setup damage boosts for the group.

Lightspeed (situational because it has a detriment of nerfing your DPS magic and you should be weaving DPS magic in the majority of content) and increasing the duration of Lucid Dreaming is basically AST's answer to Assize and Thin Air. Which in my experience playing both jobs Thin Air is still superior for MP management and Assize not only heals and does damage, but also gives you 10% MP back as a bonus as well. I would say extending the duration of LD is just similar to using Lilies on Assize and the key fact AST has nothing like Thin Air.

As for MP batteries....I'm pretty sure Mana Shift and BRD/MCH Refresh also works on WHMs and not just ASTs...so WHM can reap the benefits of that as well...so what point were you trying to make there?

So AST definitely isn't in a bad spot for MP, they are fine, but WHM is still better off because of Thin Air especially. MP management is really totally fine for all healers at the moment so this is a non-issue and a bad argument to make that WHM is somehow lacking compared to AST.

So yeah please...WHM is not irrelevant just because one player (that we can prove anyway) solo healed O4S on AST and of all the things to pick to complain that AST has better you choose MP and that it is an insult to WHM? I personally just cannot take this seriously at all. /shrug

[Erakir]

I'm not sure Trunks is talking about WHM being irrelevant, more towards a broader view of the healing systems in this game and concern for where it's all going. That said -

You don't ignore the tip top optimization of classes simply because most groups won't achieve it.

You certainly don't balance entirely around it, but you don't ignore it either. It's important to know what the ceilings are.

As for MP batteries....I'm pretty sure Mana Shift and BRD/MCH Refresh also works on WHMs and not just ASTs...so WHM can reap the benefits of that as well...so what point were you trying to make there?

So AST definitely isn't in a bad spot for MP, they are fine, but WHM is still better off because of Thin Air especially. MP management is really totally fine for all healers at the moment so this is a non-issue and a bad argument to make that WHM is somehow lacking compared to AST.

You missed the point entirely when it comes to MP, and in fact further emphasize it.

MP economy is often touted as a particular strength of WHM because, well, it certainly has ridiculous MP economy. Yet, that economy doesn't often come into play super often because other healer MP seems fine, particularly because of the abundance of MP batteries. Sure, WHM can get mana shift and refresh too.

So? What's it gonna do with that MP? Dump Cure 3s or holy spam for no apparent reason? We're already tailored around being able to cast cure 3 when relevant, and all of us are bound by the GCD. It's not gonna let us stone more; our single target DPS is cheap as heck. That refresh and mana shift are such a minor hit to the jobs using them means even the argument of "Well we have a WHM so we have to mana shift less" is poor, and it's not like there's amazing other role actions for them to take. I suppose if you had to have surecast you could keep Apocatastasis if you had the leeway to drop mana shift. Meanwhile, refresh compared to previous expansion Mage's Ballad - not losing any damage anymore to pop that one.

Until we see fights that play towards that strong MP economy more, it's not a good argument for "This is one of the things WHM brings to the table." We can also talk all we want about when everything is on fire and people are spamming desperately to stay alive, but at most this is a time saver for learning fights and does not come into play when people are playing relatively effective - not "on farm" - just reasonably well. This game, on the savage level, is not one where you will hobble through to a victory on death's door unless you already overgear the encounter.

Others have already mentioned how it can be a bigger benefit in, for instance, 24 mans, and they are correct - a WHM can keep going and that boss is not likely to have strict enrages. Same thing with dungeon and holy spam. But when we're talking about savage, it's another story and I find the MP economy argument doesn't hold much water specifically because nobody is hurting that badly on the MP front. I would argue if it were a more significant hit for mana batteries, the MP economy would naturally have more of an effect, as it did in the past. I mean, you only need look at the opportunity cost for using Ewers and how people want to avoid that on AST cause the other options are, quite frankly, more useful in most scenarios.

Edit: Does that mean WHM is irrelevant? Nope. So many times we've talked about things being pretty balanced all in all right now, and I will hold that view as well till more changes~

[Miste]

You missed the point entirely when it comes to MP, and in fact further emphasize it.

MP economy is often touted as a particular strength of WHM because, well, it certainly has ridiculous MP economy. Yet, that economy doesn't often come into play super often because other healer MP seems fine

No I didn't. You didn't understand my point about it.

MP is still a strength even if some content doesn't always make use of it. FYI MP on WHM is insanely good in dungeons after WHM obtains Thin Air. Much Holy to be had.

I mean why does WHM's MP management have to be way higher than the other two in order for it to be fair? I mean we want balance right? That doesn't seem balanced if WHM never runs out of MP ever and the other two constantly bottom out extremely quickly. Right now though WHM has a bit of an advantage, but the gap between WHM and AST/SCH isn't so large where AST/SCH are having major issues managing their MP. So to me it seems to be in a good place.

The balance for MP management seems fine, WHM has a bit better as a bonus especially if mistakes are made WHM has good recovery power, but the other healer's skill requirements aren't spiking due to difficult MP management. SE specifically said they are moving away from making certain jobs harder or easier to play than others. They want the difficulty to be around the same for each job so making MP management very difficult for 2/3 of the healers while one is far superior seems against what they said they are doing currently.

I mean these arguments about "their strengths don't come into play" is a pointless argument, because 95% of this game no job's strengths come into play when no mistakes are being made. The only time any role has their strengths come into real play is in savage, rabanastre where tons of people make tons of mistakes, and Shinryu at release was quite good difficulty, or when a lot of mistakes happen in some other really easy content. That is 6 instances in the entire game where it is difficult enough to need your strengths? (I mean I almost wouldn't count O1S and O2S even).

People have to constantly tell people what is good about WHM because people -still- complain about WHM like we are still in 3.4.

What is good about WHM doesn't mean their strengths are far superior to the other two healers, just that WHM is good and powerful right now and around the same level as the other healers.

I mean we want balance right? If WHM is around the same level as the other healers then that seems like balance to me. Person I responded to was basically making it out to be AST was stepping all over WHM still like this was 3.4. This isn't 3.4 and AST doesn't step all over WHM anymore. Both are good and both have their strengths and weaknesses.

A really high percentile skilled AST solo healing O4S doesn't mean WHM isn't balanced enough or is lacking because SE simply doesn't balance their jobs or the fights around solo healing. So WHM is very prominent in O4S groups who do the normal design based composition of 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 4 DPS.


I mean my post directly responds to things he posted. If I misunderstood then okay, but he did say WHM is irrelevant and the way he compared the MP seems to me he was making it out to be an issue. So it seemed to me he was saying that AST is just far superior in everything. That would mean he doesn't think the healers are balanced so that is why I replied what I replied.