what happened to all the melee classes?

[Exiled_Tonberry]

This game isn't that unfriendly to melee? It is slightly easier as a range but it isn't that big of a difference...so I don't see this at all

This is the type of comment only a ranged player can say and actually mean it.

Just going off of this tier alone, O1-3, are absolutely horrible for melee positionals. Either the boss is spinning around for whatever stupid mechanic or he's forced to face the group for an extended amount of time.
Right after this, he decides to poop a couple point blank aoes right behind him so we have to move out.
All of this time, ranged is just having a blast ignoring 80% of boss aoes.
All of this, and melee just barely overpowers most ranged. Why deal with this? Why not just play BRD or MCH and not only get a guaranteed spot in any raid ever, but also have the freedom of 100% DPS uptime?

[Kahnom]

Primal datacenter have tons of SAM and MNK though.

[Sam26]

Most of what the other people here said... There are many "melee only" mechanics in the game that doesn't really affect ranges. Melees don't really have a niche like they had back in ARR which I liked much better tbh. They used to be stronger ST if they could acquire a high uptime but were behind in AOE/multitarget/mechanical downtime situations, that was the Range/Caster thing... What do we have now?

SMN does nearly the best ST and the unmatched best AOE/multitarget in the game, while not being really affected by movement (Which used to be the BRD niche back in the old time and which they had to pay for with a lower dps) while providing a rez;2%physical/10%magic dmg buff; 2% raidwide dmg buff. Where is the trade off for that much power?

Then we have RDM, who also isn't really affected by movement since more than 50% of their casts are instant + providing a raidwide physical 10% buff which decays every 2 seconds + being able to save entire groups with how good they can rez/recover people, they are insanly broken below lvl.70.

Next one is BRD, they have the strongest utility in the game while beeing able to do everything while they are moving, they are pretty much the most popular job out there and any group want one. Even though they are considered as support they match/even surpass DRGs/NINs dmg...

Finally we have MCH which was outclassed in any aspect by BRD while beeing more difficult to play, now after the recent buffs they become one of the stronger jobs in ST while also beeing able to do everything while moving and providing very good utility. They beat NIN/DRG and nearly match BLMs dps...

BLM is the only range in my opinion, that really kept the caster mentality since all of the above mentioned one don't really have to care about movement and don't really suffer from it. However BLM gets outclassed by SMN in any aspect right now so I'm curious how they will handle that in the future.

Now back to the melees they all have to do positionals to maintain their dmg + take more risks in certain situation to maximize uptime + being able to maintain their selfbuffs. They are all dependent of the tank since a not expected turn of the boss can screw them and need to know exactly when the boss turns because he targets someone with a cast... imagine ranges had to do positional, how stupid would that be? Yet they match/beat the dps of the melees without having to care about these things.

BLMs are in my opinion the only ranges who should be able to beat any of the 4 melees when it comes to Single Target dmg since they also have to work for their uptime.

DRG+NIN are only "so strong" because how stupid dps buff stack with each other, they really need to lower the amount of dps utility buffs in the game otherwise there will always be a stupid "Meta" and people will assume that certain Jobs are "op" while they aren't if you check them in a vacuum and other are bad while they aren't really... buff stacking is too strong and that some jobs are dependent of certain other jobs is bad too. (BRD+MCH beeing dependent of DRG for example)

Another issue in this game is how ridiculous high tank DMG is... doing 80% of dd dps on single target doesn't seem right to me. That's also a thing which promotes buff stacking since tanks get also buffed... which leads to the core issue again....

While Ninja is one of the most sought after job in savage raiding, they are one of the most unpopular jobs along with MCH according to the last official statistics which were released in HW though but I assume that most people who play the job just play it for their raid static. If you look across boards etc. the Job doesn't seem to have a big fanbase like for example Monk or SMN probably they are hidding though^^

[RukiaFae]

Umm I just finished leveling monk and I'm working on Nin. Plus I get paired with a plenty of meele in df. It's all about perception.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

While Ninja is one of the most sought after job in savage raiding, they are one of the most unpopular jobs along with MCH according to the last official statistics which were released in HW though but I assume that most people who play the job just play it for their raid static. If you look across boards etc. the Job doesn't seem to have a big fanbase like for example Monk or SMN probably they are hidding though^^

This is definitely because of how people perceive Ninja.
They look at Ninja as this melee god that excels at everything. Trick attack, aggro management, high DPS. It intimidates people from playing it, a lot like how 2.0 Monk was the least popular job because of how scary all their positionals seemed. Though now it's unpopular for other reasons, but it probably started with that.

[XykeVayaris]

If Ninja are easy to find they are bad Ninja.
Jokes aside, in my server among the melee dps, Monk seems to be the rarest. Samurai are fairly common. Though no denying that caster appears to be more popular.

[Sam26]

This is definitely because of how people perceive Ninja.
They look at Ninja as this melee god that excels at everything. Trick attack, aggro management, high DPS. It intimidates people from playing it, a lot like how 2.0 Monk was the least popular job because of how scary all their positionals seemed. Though now it's unpopular for other reasons, but it probably started with that.

Yeah I think you are right with how people perceive the job. However the issues the Job has since release could also be a reason. Despite beeing one of the most sought after Job, Nin also has certain issues which they didn't adress and won't I suppose aslong as the job keeps beeing popular in statics.

One huge issue is, that Nin's the only Job whoose performance is solely dependant of your latency. I don't know though how they could fix the Mudra problem without changing the whole system. That's a reason several people have mentioned on why they won't touch the job. Some people even bought a program that reduces latency to be able to play the job atleast a bit without getting completly screwed. I mean what kind of design is that if some people can play a Job and others can't solely of the place where you live?

Next thing is, when they nerfed Nin back in ARR they didn't do it in a smart way, with making poisons not affecting magic dmg anymore they promoted Fuma becoming better than Raiton in nearly any scenario which is stupid since Raiton was the originally intentioned Single Target ability....

NINs have the same issue MNK mains are complaining about right now. TCJ is awful and stands against everything the job is about. I mean an ability that locks you down for ~6 seconds depending on your latency, you can't perform any action/move while performing TCJ otherwise it gets interrupted. Again a Melee Job which is supposed to be agile/fast gains such an ability... The Idea behind it is good (Jutsu spamming), the execution super poor.
They also got barely any change since the Job got released back in ARR, most changes were nerfs to the personal aspect of the job (not touching the real reason why they are considered one of the strongest jobs = TA).
I honestly believe that NIN's the only job they keep constantly nerfing (in the wrong way) while they usually tend to buff Jobs... look at the recent SMN/MCH/DRG buffs....

Trick Attack is a bless and curse at the same time... it's the reason why the job will always stay viable in raid comps (aslong as other jobs don't beat ninjas dps + the contribution of TA which some are close to doing it / even do it now) but also the curse that stops it from evolving...
I hate how they practically turned the Job into a Trick Attack bot, that skill yields too much of the Jobs Power and is mostly an "invisible" power you apply to the Target.
If you look objectively into TA, the ability isn't as op in a vacuum since you pay for it with your own DPS so it's more a tradeoff but because of how Buff stacking in this game works and how they scale with eachother it gets stupidly strong.

Don't forget that TA isn't nearly as strong outside of organized groups so 95% of the time you play you are weaker than comparable jobs when it comes to dailly stuff and other content in the game. Sure that doesn't stop you from doing/clearing these stuff since it's easy but the same can be said about Savage... you can clear that with nearly any comp. Yet "meta" is a huge issue for many people.

Just an example: Imagine they would remove the + dmg part of the MNK stacks and in exchange they would buff BH so that it buffs all dmg of the party + increase it to ~10% would that suddenly make MNK a much more enjoyable job and fix every issue the job has? They would probably become meta but would the dedicated MNK mains be happy with such a change? It wouldn't change anything for the MNK gameplay wise... but hey people would suddenly start thinking that they are the "best, or one of the best jobs in the game" I hope I was able to describe what I mean ._.
NINs + dmg trait only affects their physical abilities (even excluding Auto Attacks) since they kept nerfing it in ARR+SB while their Huge/Core abilities are magical.... what kind of sense does that make? They could just remove the trait and adjust the numbers of the few skills that are affected. Imagine your selfbuff would buff everything but not your strong attacks...

I have been a dedicated Nin main since the job got released but not because of its power... I liked the theme of the Job beeing someone fast, a bit assassin like and able to cast Jutsus but they changed the job to a more "support role" in HW and gave DRG the same treatment in SB. Like cmon which melee player would like to be turned into a "support" where support means that you have less support than the original supportive intented jobs while beeing melee and having to deal with positionals and such?

dunno ._. I believe that any Job has some issues here, we should probably all work together and probably create a mega thread in which we list what we think is an issue about our Jobs and look how other people who play the jobs think about it.
In hope that a developer sees the thread. I mean I have the feeling that they don't really care too much about the western lands ._.

Finally the top raiding people usually don't care about which job they play, they just play the job which is strong atm and fits the grp best so they most likely also don't care how a job feels aslong as it brings its performance.

[RenOkamiya]

Snip

Well, first of all, it "makes sense" that poisons don't apply to magic damage (you don't use your dagger to throw a lightning bolt at something you just cast it). You say raiton doesn't have any use basically, but you're wrong. After kassatsu, if you need to reset Shukuchi (specially now that it's sooo much OP movement wise) or if you need to move away from the boss for any mecanic reasons you do use it if you know what you're doing/need. I agree that TCJ is a bit of a struggle, but once you know the fight you can adapt easily, if you use the backa opener for example and use TCJ to set up TA. Even if it take a snare, it's a gigantic potency output at the end (i mean shuriken, raiton and suiton at ~10k crit each cmon).

TA is one thing yes (which is not the place to debate of it), but not the only one, if you have a healer suddenly taking aggro, or your MT dies for some reasons, you can manipulate aggro in a matter of seconds, and maybe save the party (maybe). If you think nin is just a "TA bot" you are doing something wrong obviously because if you can adapt it does have a strong DPS output AND a strong utility.

People have a tendency to criticize and not seeing what is great about something. The only thing you have is nin complaining about the positional of TA, but if they don't have fun with the way it's design (I have trouble seeing a backstab from the front) they should play something else more "brain dead".

Ninja IS a fun class to play, and fast and agile, if you use the tools you have, and has a lot of utility and not just TA, while being performant DPS wise (I'm far from being a good player, but I don't shame my static either I think ^^)

You say meta is a huge factor, but the thing is, besides world 1st prog, and the people who just want to copy the great players and failing at it, it has no point. You can clear with any comp as long as their is a teamwork in play. Back in HW monk was everything but meta, and yet I have cleared content with one in my team. He is a great player, not pretending to be the best but doing is job, and it worked. The pb is not the "meta" is the "copycat" people in my opinion. How many bad tank have you seen running the full STR right set just because "they do it, I can do it and it's meta !", but they are not holding any aggro and not using any CDs. More than one I assume.
The people who use meta are the one with a lot of experience together and more important, trust in each others skills. Which you will not find in any PF, roulettes or whatever else.

If you are more focus on the "meta" than you are on the job you want to play, you are not enjoying the game very much I assume. Sadly ^^

[Sam26]

snip

Thank you for your opinon I believe you got me a bit wrong though ._. (Might be because english isn't my native language)
I don't struggle with the job, while I'm not the best player I'm also able to pull purple up to orange numbers regularly with my static. I know what the job is capable of and didn't mention the enmity skills because they are mostly fine. (except smokescreen I believe it's underwhelming/useless in 99% of situations , with o4s beeing the only exception due to enmity reset but Shadewalker is pretty good in many/all situations.) However if Ninja wouldn't have TA, they wouldn't be desired in any grp despite having these enmity tools.

Any Job has access to some kind of enmity tools through roll skills now in SB , that's why I believe Smokescreen should have been reworked to something more usefull, that's a different topic though.

I know the things you mentioned in your post ._. and regarding Raiton that's why I wrote "nearly all", not "all".
Kassatsu + the rare circumstances where you need it to reset shukuchi don't justify that you still use Fuma over Ration regularly. Depending on circumstances it can even be better to Fuma over Raiton under Kassatsu, in tight windows or if you are running RDM/MNK for example.

"If you think nin is just a "TA bot" you are doing something wrong obviously because if you can adapt it does have a strong DPS output AND a strong utility."
The thing is strong dps compared to what? You get outdpsed by nearly any other job while beeing a melee (If the other dps in your grp know how to play their jobs). That's the trade off for having TA though.

"You say meta is a huge factor,..."
It isn't atleast for me personally , I'm usually an enemy of the whole "meta" topic and also believe that it's a bit overrated. You could for example replace Nin with DRG(if you have a good brd/mch), MNK (if you run a physical comp), MCH and don't feel a real raid dps difference.
However most people seem to put more value into that topic though and the result is that they start believing that their Job is trash (which really isn't the case) while jobs in the "meta" are automatically OP (while the jobs themselves aren't if you look at them in a vacuum).
Creating the situation where many people may feel frustrated...

What I say/believe though is that the + DPS utility bloat in this game is a huge problem factor, it gets worse with time since they keep handing them out like candy to all jobs. It will cause further problems in the future which results in certain jobs beeing undesired in pug grps/statics.

Next thing is that Tank dps is way to high in this game, I mean cmon ~4k dps as tank in single target , that's up to 80% of what dps do in certain fights. They don't have a real "Tank gameplay" they are basically melee dps with higher resistences, deff cds and without positionals in this game.
They are a huge factor why the DMG buff stacking gets even more ridiculous powerful...

"Ninja IS a fun class to play, and fast and agile"
I just said that the job does have some issues and not that it's totaly unfun, I appologize if that's how it sounded ._. I mean I sticked to the job since release... but I'm hoping that they might adress the gameplay issues that the job still has. I'm not speaking about the performance here nor about figures.
TCJ just doesn't "feel" right how it works and it gets even worse depending on latency. Using Fuma (240pot) over Raiton(360pot) in our rotation also "feels" wrong (the culprit here is our trait after the nerf).
Dependence of latency on mudras (Mudra lag)... is wrong , I know many people who don't touch the job because of that issue.

Finally I believe that the dependence of the job to TA is too huge that's only my opinion though. I feel like I'm only "strong" because of TA if it didn't exist any other job would be better.
Despite beeing really attached to the Job I also started to play range 100% of the time outside of savage raiding because it feels/performs better.
The Range vs Melee is a relevant topic in my opinion...