Multiple difficulty scaling dungeons

[frostmagemari]

Personally, i'd love to see a version of Mythic+ dungeons within the game. People always seem to complain about dungeons (A) not being difficult or (B) having to do the same ones over and over again and being bored.
A mythic+ system would alleviate that somewhat. Maybe it wouldn't be all the dungeons, or even half of them; but if it's more than the current patch's new dungeon then it can be a benefit.

Also.. people who are denouncing it DO know that you don't have to copy+paste the feature and it's reward style directly from the other game, right? SQE can change things to better suit their game. The only arguments against being open to taking a good system and incorporating it in some way is because you don't think the devs can do a good job in making the FFXIV version of a system better than the original; That, or you hate everything that's not FFXIV original systems because you think that if SQE didn't come up with it, it's not a worthwhile system... Despite the fact that XIV 2.0 wouldn't have existed at all if they didn't look at other games and their existing working systems.

[DeaconMoore]

Snip

The best thing mythic+ dungeons has going for it is you don't have to find a bunch of people on your own server to do it with. That plus the rewards makes it more desirable and feasible than mythic raiding especially on small servers. The difficulty of mythic+ dungeons goes away just like any other dungeon over time.

The only place you can find any kind of lasting difficulty is going to be in the pvp arena. There your opponents aren't predictable.

[frostmagemari]

The best thing mythic+ dungeons has going for it is you don't have to find a bunch of people on your own server to do it with. That plus the rewards makes it more desirable and feasible than mythic raiding especially on small servers. The difficulty of mythic+ dungeons goes away just like any other dungeon over time.

The only place you can find any kind of lasting difficulty is going to be in the pvp arena. There your opponents aren't predictable.

So because there's no perfect solution that solves every single problem without room for error, there's no reason to adopt systems that would lessen the problem that we have?
That's a good line of thinking to never get anything done.

[DeaconMoore]

So because there's no perfect solution that solves every single problem without room for error, there's no reason to adopt systems that would lessen the problem that we have?
That's a good line of thinking to never get anything done.

Well the fact that you even admit in passing mythic+ doesn't solve the difficulty issues your looking for a solution too should be enough for you to rethink the issue.

Mythic+ is a solution for people to gear alternatively to mythic raids they can't do for whatever logistical reason. Adopting it for the purpose of more difficult dungeons is folly.

And as far as a line of thinking to not get anything done, really? I gave you your difficulty solution already. The problem is predictability, the solution is unpredictability.

[frostmagemari]

Well the fact that you even admit in passing mythic+ doesn't solve the difficulty issues your looking for a solution too should be enough for you to rethink the issue.

Nothing will solve every issue. Nothing will, no matter how close you get there will be some issue left. I'm just not someone who believes the perfect is the enemy of the good.

Mythic+ is a solution for people to gear alternatively to mythic raids they can't do for whatever logistical reason. Adopting it for the purpose of more difficult dungeons is folly.

The idea of any sort of progression.. whether raid, dungeon, pvp, etc.. is to get to the next tier of that progression system. Some enjoy raids, some enjoy smaller content and some enjoy both while some enjoy neither and would do neither.
If a balanced progression system can be created through small scale dungeons that through harder difficulty can get participants rewards worth the effort, XIV has taken a step to encouraging a longer lasting player base.

And as far as a line of thinking to not get anything done, really? I gave you your difficulty solution already. The problem is predictability, the solution is unpredictability.

No, you didn't. You really didn't. You gave a concept, a concept that is not possible under the current design structures of MMORPGs (especially one that uses the tank/dps/healer trinity for content) or any game style for that matter. Further more, any unpredictability system implemented would fall prey to a larger number of people getting frustrated with the system because content would just be a matter of RNG, and everything would be made less lethal in the encounter due to the inherent RNG baked into the monster's actions; couple that with the problems with the game's performance in general and you have your ticket to losing subs.

[DeaconMoore]

Snip

Oy. You rail against no mythic+ for difficulty when it'll be just as easy as any other dungeon after people learn its mechanics. And you rail against fighting unpredictable opponents for being too unpredictable.

How do you get something to remain difficult if it's the exact same thing you face over and over again?

As it is now our opponents in dungeons and raids have no tactics. They have a threat bar and a cycle of abilities they use.


Now look at pvp. Sure the tactics of some are pretty darn laughable. But when facing an organized group of players you tend to face a real challenge to overcome. Why? Because they think, observe, and adapt.

You say you want more difficult dungeons but do you really? Is facing off against an enemy that can think and change vs an enemy that follows a set of rules no matter what really going to scare off everyone and kill the game?

Yes my solution is outside the typical mmo game for pve. But aside from doing that the only thing an mmo game can do to increase its difficulty is place a super tight dps check in place and force everyone to be perfect in their dance of death with the boss.

Tell me, how many tears have mmos drank over the years with such methods? How many bosses have been nerfed because of them?

If you are unwilling to step outside the box you're doomed to wander around the same old boring circles.

[frostmagemari]

Oy. You rail against no mythic+ for difficulty when it'll be just as easy as any other dungeon after people learn its mechanics.

No.. I never "railed against" Mythic+ style dungeons. I am IN FAVOUR of them; i'm just not foolish enough to think that they are a perfect solution to all the woes, but accept that nothing will solve all the problems.

And you rail against fighting unpredictable opponents for being too unpredictable.

Telling you in clear terms why your solution is no solution at all is not "railing against unpredictable opponents"; Try reading sometime. It really helps with a text based forum.

How do you get something to remain difficult if it's the exact same thing you face over and over again?

You make the existing mechanics of the fight more punishing (damage, absorption of damage, need for interrupts on mechanics), then you add more mechanics to the fight at certain difficulties that require the party to not just throw themselves at the boss but pay attention to add mechanics or other things to take direct attention off the boss.

As it is now our opponents in dungeons and raids have no tactics. They have a threat bar and a cycle of abilities they use.

Now look at pvp. Sure the tactics of some are pretty darn laughable. But when facing an organized group of players you tend to face a real challenge to overcome. Why? Because they think, observe, and adapt.

So what you want is a virtual intelligence? Dear god... I'm sorry, but you're not going to get that here.. ever. So it's not much of a solution, is it?

You say you want more difficult dungeons but do you really? Is facing off against an enemy that can think and change vs an enemy that follows a set of rules no matter what really going to scare off everyone and kill the game?

Considering the fact that you're suggesting creating a virtual AI for boss encounters, and is not something that can be adequately created by any AAA developer at the moment.. yes, the attempt will kill the game just on development alone.

Yes my solution is outside the typical mmo game for pve. But aside from doing that the only thing an mmo game can do to increase its difficulty is place a super tight dps check in place and force everyone to be perfect in their dance of death with the boss.

Your solution is impossible for ANY GAME, not just MMOs with PvE... Name me a single game where the enemies don't act on prescribed processes and instead "think, observe, and adapt" to their opponents.

Tell me, how many tears have mmos drank over the years with such methods? How many bosses have been nerfed because of them?

Encounters are designed to create an atmosphere for the fight. When they design the fight, the developer team have to think "what do we want to do with this fight" and try to give the audience something that will challenge them but not lock them out of chances of victory. If it comes closer to the latter than the former, than they are able to tweek an encounter so more can have a chance at beating it.
Do i always agree? No; but "let's make a virtual AI" isn't the answer to this bloody question.

If you are unwilling to step outside the box you're doomed to wander around the same old boring circles.

And you've climbed out of the box, down the hill and into the rabbithole labled "wonderland" and are having tea with the queen of hearts.