Dear Healers who don't DPS

[Almagnus1]

They are called below average based on gameplay design.

I'm not disagreeing with that assessment. In fact, if you scroll back a few pages, I actually said healers should be pushing their classes to the limits in PF and Statics - which means DPSing and healing. The only thing I'm actually writing off is DF - which kinda puts me on both sides of this argument at once >.>

You can't be considered a good player if you're ignoring a third of your abilities.

Well yeah, but in the scope of a DF instance, you've got to weigh replacement time vs gritting your teeth and just going along with them. Also, by kicking a bad out of an instance, you are also denying them experience and a chance for them to learn which perpetuates the problem.

We're simply discussing healer design on a forum.

Therein lies the problem. While we're all discussing this here... it leaves it open for other less than noble players to see thread, then go make people's lives hell in DF.

More often than not, the healers being criticised in this thread aren't trying, let alone put forth an effort to improve.

And those healers will never change because they do not care enough to change - and attempting to "fix" them is only going to cause everyone involved more stress.

Basically, pure healers need stop thinking they're special. If everyone else has to contribute to the extent their abilities allow. So do you.

Let's get one thing straight: I NEVER said I do not DPS in an instance. In fact, one of the things that irks me the most with wall to wall pulling is that the tank completely denies me my ability to DPS, and usually when I am able to DPS everything's basically dead so I'm not able to contribute DPS. Essentially, big pulls are actually slowing down the group rather than pulling like 2 groups, we beat them down, and advance. The other fun things are when undergeared tanks use sword stance and start taking massive damage, so again, I can't DPS because I have to deal with a squishy tank.

Just because I'm suggesting we write off DF doesn't mean I'm standing around playing with my staff when I'm not healing.

Furthermore, if healers were only meant to heal, why does nearly every single White Mage, Astro and Scholar quest involve dealing damage?

Because there's only so many times you can just heal in a quest before they get to be little more than cutscene bonanzas. They need combat so they can introduce a fail condition.

Now the devs may prefer us to predominantly heal, but gameplay design simply doesn't necessitate it.

Going back to the quote, I suspect the real reason why instanced are balanced around zero healers DPS is to provide flex room for the group, rather than say "HEALERS DO NUFFIN!". Again, this also reinforces my stance on PF and static groups.

Yet you have multiple career healers saying to DPS whom you're arguing against. Regardless, it doesn't take advance knowledge of healer jobs to know standing completely idle is a waste of everyone's time.

Ok, since I don't know SCH and AST, what skills am I going to recommend them to use? How would I know if they aren't already using said skills if I'm not parsing the fight? Telling them to "do more DPS" doesn't actually accomplish anything in and of itself - cause you gotta tell them HOW to do more DPS.

[Kabzy]

Ok, since I don't know SCH and AST, what skills am I going to recommend them to use? How would I know if they aren't already using said skills if I'm not parsing the fight?

1) Healer is standing there doing nothing.
2) Healer is casting nothing. You can see casts on the party list.
3) Check the DoTs on your own target.

Let's get one thing straight: I NEVER said I do not DPS in an instance. In fact, one of the things that irks me the most with wall to wall pulling is that the tank completely denies me my ability to DPS, and usually when I am able to DPS everything's basically dead so I'm not able to contribute DPS. Essentially, big pulls are actually slowing down the group ...

You play WHM, you literally have the easiest time dealing with this situation. Holy -> Aero III -> Holy -> Holy -> Assize or whatever. You get like 7 or so seconds of free stun, and by that point most of the fiends should be dead. And should things somehow still go south, you have Benediction. Again, one of the better tools to have to deal with that situation. You just need to use them!

Heck I'll even add another tip. Pair up Thin Air with Presence of Mind and you can get 5 free Holy casts in quick succession. These are not pro tactics, this is really just stuff you should know from reading a tooltip.

[Almagnus1]

1) Healer is standing there doing nothing.
2) Healer is casting nothing. You can see casts on the party list.
3) Check the DoTs on your own target.

That assumes that I know which DoTs go with which classes...

You play WHM, you literally have the easiest time dealing with this situation. Holy -> Aero III -> Holy -> Holy -> Assize or whatever. You get like 7 or so seconds of free stun, and by that point most of the fiends should be dead. And should things somehow still go south, you have Benediction. Again, one of the better tools to have to deal with that situation. You just need to use them!

Heck I'll even add another tip. Pair up Thin Air with Presence of Mind and you can get 5 free Holy casts in quick succession. These are not pro tactics, this is really just stuff you should know from reading a tooltip.

Thank you captain obvious for telling me a bunch of stuff about my own class that I already know.

Please stop assuming I'm the noob here.

[Kabzy]

In fact, one of the things that irks me the most with wall to wall pulling is that the tank completely denies me my ability to DPS, and usually when I am able to DPS everything's basically dead so I'm not able to contribute DPS. Essentially, big pulls are actually slowing down the group rather than pulling like 2 groups, we beat them down, and advance.

*my suggestions to help you with this problem YOU are having*

Thank you captain obvious for telling me a bunch of stuff about my own class that I already know.

Please stop assuming I'm the noob here.

I don't know what's worse, an actual noob or someone who supposedly knows their job (not class) yet fails to use the toolkit effectively. WHMs excel at large pulls in dungeons, YOU are the problem here. c:

[HyoMinPark]

That assumes that I know which DoTs go with which classes...

Considering SB got rid of a lot of DoTs and consolidated others, I'll make this simple for you. Here are all the DoTs healers have at level 70 and their durations::
WHM: Aero II, Aero III (you should know these)
AST: Combust II (blue icon with darker blue dots; 30 seconds)
SCH: Miasma (purple/white icon; 20-ish seconds), Bio II (pink/purple icon; 30 seconds); Miasma II (purple/black icon; think the duration may be 15-ish seconds but would need to double check)

If you're in 4-man content, I fail to see how it's a big deal not knowing what other healer job DoTs look like. You should be concerned about tossing your own DoTs up there as a healer. It's not like any of them overwrite (aside from resistance down debuffs but those aren't really DoTs). If you have to give out advice to another healer and you are not healing, then familiarize yourself with the different DoTs. Again, SB got rid of a lot of them, so it's not that hard to identify them. They all look different. Same thing with DPS. You can hover over the DoTs to see what they're called to help familiarize yourself with them.

Thank you captain obvious for telling me a bunch of stuff about my own class that I already know.

Please stop assuming I'm the noob here.

You're making healer DPS WAY more complicated that it needs to be. A tank is doing a large pull? As a WHM, you have the perfect mitigation for this: HOLY. Big damage, and a stun that lasts for at least 3 casts before the immunity sets in. The bigger the pull, the better because it's more damage you're dishing out. Thin Air + Presence of Mind + Holy spam is god-tier healer DPS. When I Holy spam, I keep the tank targeted, so that I can Tetra or Bene him if need be. Perhaps try that next time.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I'm not disagreeing with that assessment. In fact, if you scroll back a few pages, I actually said healers should be pushing their classes to the limits in PF and Statics - which means DPSing and healing. The only thing I'm actually writing off is DF - which kinda puts me on both sides of this argument at once >.>

Well yeah, but in the scope of a DF instance, you've got to weigh replacement time vs gritting your teeth and just going along with them. Also, by kicking a bad out of an instance, you are also denying them experience and a chance for them to learn which perpetuates the problem.

You're assuming we don't just "grit and bare it." I seldom ever kick, though I do have a tend to drop tank stance if I see healers standing around who aren't new. Either way, there is a stark difference between expecting someone to push their limits and wanting some DoTs and the occasional Holy/Gravity cast. I won't necessarily call you out, but I'll certainly think you're lazy.

Therein lies the problem. While we're all discussing this here... it leaves it open for other less than noble players to see thread, then go make people's lives hell in DF.

And those healers will never change because they do not care enough to change - and attempting to "fix" them is only going to cause everyone involved more stress.

So you are advocating a "safe space." Sorry, but if someone says mean things to you in DF, get over it. People who are willing to ridicule don't need a discussion on the official forums to fuel their intent. They'll do it regardless.

I'm not trying to fix them per se, just discussing how healing works based on the design in FFXIV. I'll certainly argue they aren't good healers though.

Let's get one thing straight: I NEVER said I do not DPS in an instance. In fact, one of the things that irks me the most with wall to wall pulling is that the tank completely denies me my ability to DPS, and usually when I am able to DPS everything's basically dead so I'm not able to contribute DPS. Essentially, big pulls are actually slowing down the group rather than pulling like 2 groups, we beat them down, and advance. The other fun things are when undergeared tanks use sword stance and start taking massive damage, so again, I can't DPS because I have to deal with a squishy tank.

First and foremost, you can absolutely DPS on a mega pull. Swiftcast Holy into Aero III does a surprising amount. Nevertheless, you are quite mistaken. Take the largest pull we can do currently. Dedicated DPS like Red Mage and Samurai can top 10,000 DPS-- far exceeding the loss of some Holy spam on a smaller pack. I did the huge Ala Mhgian pull with just a Summoner (RDM died to aoes) and they were still melting everything while breaking 8,000 DPS. Those pulls simply put greater onus on the DPS to be competent but they are faster.

Just because I'm suggesting we write off DF doesn't mean I'm standing around playing with my staff when I'm not healing.

You have missed the point of this thread. No one has said kick pure healers en masse. We're simply not defending them when talking about healer design in the same vein we wouldn't defend squishy tanks who don't use CDs.

Because there's only so many times you can just heal in a quest before they get to be little more than cutscene bonanzas. They need combat so they can introduce a fail condition.

Which is a failure in design if the devs want to encourage healing over damage. Having completed White Mage up to 60 story wise, I had precisely one quest where I had to actually dedicate some healing to the NPCs. A friend of mine routinely complained how little emphasis is placed on actually healing.

Going back to the quote, I suspect the real reason why instanced are balanced around zero healers DPS is to provide flex room for the group, rather than say "HEALERS DO NUFFIN!". Again, this also reinforces my stance on PF and static groups.

You would be correct, however what the devs prefer and what gameplay allows are two distinctly different things. Yoshida openly dislikes our DPS focus "meta," but until they necessitate more healing, no one will care. Gameplay allows healers to outdamage tanks in most content, thus it's expected of your after a certain point to get comfortable DPSing. If you're level 70 with decent gear, it doesn't matter what the content is, toss out some DoTs or something.

[Seoulstar]

So you are advocating a "safe space." Sorry, but if someone says mean things to you in DF, get over it. People who are willing to ridicule don't need a discussion on the official forums to fuel their intent. They'll do it regardless.

Why exactly should someone get over a person harassing them over something as minor as dpsing as a healer?

[magnanimousCynic]

Just because Yoshi-P approves or disapproves of how people play doesn't mean that's how we must play. That's called the Appeal to Authority fallacy.

If Yoshi-P said that the DPS numbers for Summoner doesn't consider using Ruin III outside of DWT would you tell other Summoners that they shouldn't have to use Ruin III outside of DWT, even though it's an obvious damage increase?

Why exactly should someone get over a person harassing them over something as minor as dpsing as a healer?

Giving someone gameplay advice =/= Harassment. Besides, Harassment is a perfectly justifiable option for kicking people.

[Seoulstar]

Just because Yoshi-P approves or disapproves of how people play doesn't mean that's how we must play. That's called the Appeal to Authority fallacy.

If Yoshi-P said that the DPS numbers for Summoner doesn't consider using Ruin III outside of DWT would you tell other Summoners that they shouldn't have to use Ruin III outside of DWT, even though it's an obvious damage increase?



Giving someone gameplay advice =/= Harassment. Besides, Harassment is a perfectly justifiable option for kicking people.

If they said giving advice then I wouldn't have made the comment. They said ridicule, which falls under harassment.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Why exactly should someone get over a person harassing them over something as minor as dpsing as a healer?

Because people willing to scream obscenities at you aren't worth your time? I'm not saying take the abuse. Have at it with them and/or report them. I just don't see the purpose behind caring what toxic people like that have to say. Now this differs substantially if said person is trying to offer advice you just don't happen to like.

I should also add I was being a touch sarcastic with my phrasing. "Mean things" is my way of mocking how oversensitive some people get at the slightest remark.