Is Fordola the monster Lyse says she is?

[Quor]

It's a real shame that tone policing

And I'm done with you. Any good benefit of the doubt i was giving you is gone. You clearly don't want what you say you want, because you don't respond to the very well-written (and often not even a little snarky) counter-arguments presented to you. Then, when challenged on this, you bring in irrelevant RL experience, while going "oh but I'm not trying to guilt trip here!" when you quite clearly are. You aren't the only one with a rough life buddy, and as rough as it is, it's nowhere near as rough as the people in Las Vegas just last night. No one else has brought RL stuff into this discussion except you, and quite frankly no one else cares.

Now you have the gall to use "tone-policing" as a defense of your actions, when clearly all your doing is failing to respond to the counter-arguments presented against you. This puts truth to the lie that what you want is discussion. You don't want discussion, you want to be able to say whatever you want to say without correction, even when what you say is clearly factually incorrect, or at best ignores large amounts of important information that is relevant to the topic at hand. In short, I have to agree with MysterySword; you're a troll.

[Theodric]

Personally, I think that this thread is getting off course. The discourse on morality, Garlemald, and the like are more or less on topic. However, attacks on specific persons are not acceptable. Let's focus on the game and the surrounding lore discussion, not particular people. We can all make our arguments and counterarguments without resorting to ad hominem or referring to people as hypocrites and the like. Let's all just take one step back and take a few deep breaths to calm down, alright?

I'm just going to quote this, since it's very relevant. Some of you really need to honestly reevaluate your lives if you're getting so worked up over someone's opinions on subjective elements of a fantasy settings fictional lore. I've said as much already, but it's honestly pretty creepy how much bile some of you are spewing. It's not going to drive me away though, if that's the intention. Regardless, I'll also quote another portion of any earlier post:

At any rate, I made a conscious effort to breathe some new life and discussion into a variety of threads. I suggest you guys do the same. It's a bit jarring that threads like this end up getting 20+ pages yet other threads unrelated to Garlemald and/or morality rarely experience the same luxury. Perhaps that is something we can compromise and agree upon...?

Right? Right.

Hopefully.

I'm not really sure how many times I have to say that I have no real interest in regurgitating the exact same 'debates' regarding Garlemald with the exact same posters day in, day out. Nobody involved is going to change their mind where the morality aspects are concerned and nor should they - because they're completely subjective and open to personal interpretation. One man's villain is another man's hero and so on. It isn't a particularly hard concept to grasp where nuanced characters and factions are concerned. Or at least it shouldn't be. Thus it is perfectly reasonable to simply agree to disagree. It's that simple - then the tiresome 'debates' need not continue and spill out across multiple threads.

It'd also be pretty great to see other aspects of the lore unrelated to Garlemald get some time in the spotlight for a change, too. Branding me a 'troll' is ridiculous and quite simply false - and if any of you have an issue with me you're welcome to make a character on Cerberus and talk it out. If you're not willing to do that, then it's pretty clear you have no interest at all in coming to a compromise, remaining civil or ensuring that this board does not become a cesspit.

[Kusanagi7]

guys can we get back to the topic at hand FORDOLA and take drama elsewhere plz wanna see more disscusion about her

[Alleo]

guys can we get back to the topic at hand FORDOLA and take drama elsewhere plz wanna see more disscusion about her

I kinda agree with you but its difficult to go back if nobody that wants it back truly brings in more points. I did a bit of an on topic last page but it was sadly ignored.

So do you guys think that this might have been a bad decision by Lyse since even Fordola herself cant understand why she is still alive? Will she do something stupid and maybe release her and maybe give her back her sword which makes Fordola attack back?

My problem is that you cant just change ones deep belief over night and especially not if that person that tries to change is, is your enemy. So any kind of redemption for her needs to be over a bit of a time imo otherwise it just feels like "plot demands, plot gives" situation and I had enough of those in HW (uldah for example). Seeing how our Scion boy gets more and more attention I truly fear that he will be used to show Lyse that Fordola will not change by having him being killed by her..I really hope that this is not the case..

Anyway we saw a bit of a sob story in the trailer so it seems that will be the first steps into the direction of making her more likeable for others. I am just not really sure if it should end like that or if she should just stay in prison..I mean that tower shooting should have warranted her a live time in prison and its not like she helped the alliance before they defeated Zenos in any way.

[Quor]

Fordola's redemption

My feeling is that her relative unfamiliarity with the Echo will be key. I'm guessing that while the Resonance grants her great combat ability she probably has no idea of the other side effects, and these side effects will prove too much for her. Maybe she'll think she's going crazy, seeing visions of the past and not knowing what they are, and this will provide an inroad to working with her. I'm hoping that, as a "veteran" Echo user, the WoL, and possibly Arenvald as well, will become something like mentors to her, to teach her to control her power so she's not overwhelmed.

[LineageRazor]

While Fordola might not see any point in keeping Fordola alive, Lyse has very openly declared why she wants Fordola alive: so that she can witness with her own eyes an Ala Mhigo free of Garlean rule. It's actually a kind of revenge on Lyse's part; if Fordola is executed now, she dies smugly confident that her worldview was the correct one. I think Fordola would very much like to be executed, in fact, rather than live to see the supposedly "free" Ala Mhigo burn when the Garleans strike back.

Lyse wants to prove to her that siding with the Garleans was the wrong decision to make, and that all the atrocities she committed for her ideals were a pointless waste. Right now, while slaughtering all of her own comrades with cannon fire is something that saddens Fordola, it's NOT something that she regrets because she saw it as a necessary sacrifice. Lyse wants to show her that that sacrifice was NOT necessary, that all of the terrible things Fordola did in the Empire's name were NOT necessary, that if Fordola had been a part of the resistance instead, she could have brought about Ala Mhigo's freedom all the sooner - and at the same time, been accepted and loved by her people, who currently despise her.

Technically, this has already happened; Ala Mhigo is free, for now. However, I'm guessing that neither Fordola nor Lyse will consider the job done until Ala Mhigo is safe from Garlean retaliation. Things are not yet at the point where Fordola feels any need to swallow that bitter pill, and Lyse is going to make her choke it down if it kills them both.

[Ametrine]

I agree in most part with Lineage. Lyse, however, has a line earlier in that she wants an Ala Mhigo that even Fordola can live in, so I don't think it's rooted in revenge.

Fordola was pretty intensely conditioned by Gaius, and as stated earlier in the thread, Fordola likely thrived under his command. My theory is that Lyse, aware of this, likely wants to make Fordola into an example of a hardcore conscripted soldier turned citizen to "see the light" in that the Garlean way isn't the best or only way.

Essentially, my theory is Lyse wants to FORCE Fordola into redeeming herself. If successful, it would invaribly show other Garlean conscripts they can escape and clean up their acts, which would egg on rebellions further.

[VargasVermillion]

Essentially, my theory is Lyse wants to FORCE Fordola into redeeming herself. If successful, it would invaribly show other Garlean conscripts they can escape and clean up their acts, which would egg on rebellions further.

The only problem with an idea like this is that it assumes most conscripts are like Fordola in that they have little family or ties that can be threatened beyond their own well-being. Many conscripts would have family members who are essentially held hostage and depending on how far they've gone they may even have property or status to consider. Some could see that they could leave but wouldn't because they have earned their place and don't want to start again or all the sacrifices they made would of "meant nothing". Personally it could be easy to risk everything for your ideals when you have only your life to consider but throw other variables in and it's not an easy decision to make.

[Ametrine]

snip.

That makes sense, and is a very good counter-argument, but you can also consider the fact that part of the overarching plan with the rapid fire liberation of Doma and Ala Mhigo is to sow seeds of dissent. Adding the conversion and following freedom of conscripted soldiers to that, and those seeds can start to take root on the inside.

Garlemald doesn't look so invincible anymore, and it goes both ways. The conscripts don't want to be forced into the position to fight and survive for a few decades in hopes of gain a few more scant human rights. Garlemald runs itself on fear of the subjugated, brainwashing the masses from the soldiers displaced to farflung parts of the world to the citizens beaten in their own homes by said angry soldiers.

Garlemald does everything it can to take the power and identity away from the non-pureblooded people it rules. This ranges from stealing every penny you make to destroying any semblance of religion to the act of copying your national anthem and rewritting to celebrate Garlemald instead.

Once your beaten into the dirt so badly it starts to taste good is when they start to trickle in little opportunities to gain something for yourself back.

"Be a soldier, and you won't be the one being beaten on the streets. Now that you're a soldier, work as hard as you can and in 20 years, you can get your citizenship. Oh, congratulations. But you're still not a pureblood and all the sins you committed in Garlemald's name are on your hands. You savage."


I think that's one point that's yet to be fully touched upon. The soldiers that are characterized as violent butchers are just people suffering under Garlean rule the same. They HAVE to be that cruel to survive, for all sorts of reasons ranging from the fear of their family back home to having basic human rights again, and the blind racism and classism Garlemald feeds it's people just fuels it. Fordola, like it or not, is a victim of that. Yotsuyu is, too.

If they are monsters, it's because they were trained, conditioned, encouraged, and rewarded to be that way. These people need to saved just as badly as the poor villagers do and I think Fordola may be at the center of that. They need to face justice, but killing the millions of conscripts over helping them reintegrate into society just pushes into the same level of cruelty we're supposed to take pause at.

[Cilia]

Fordola, like it or not, is a victim of [the Imperial system]. Yotsuyu is, too.

One could argue that all Imperial subjects, Garlean, non-Garlean, and non-citizen alike, are victims of the same system. While the Garleans of, say, Solus' generation did know to some variable extent cruelty at the hands of their neighbors in Ilsabard, most if not all Garleans from that time period are likely retired or dead. Gaius, for instance, was only a young child when Solus ascended to power... so he, too, is likely a victim of the Imperial system. Maybe even Varis. Hence, what is needed is reform Empire-wide... along with a leader who doesn't believe in Imperial propaganda, such as all non-Garleans being savages who need to be put to heel for their own good.

Yotsuyu is... a bit different, I think, from your typical Imperial conscript. She seems to have joined the Empire, willingly, and as a spy, not a soldier. While non-citizens have pretty poor lives, Yotsuyu's is implied to be... well, a lot worse thanks to an abusive family. Being an Imperial spy was likely a step up for her.