I don't understand the point of the various tank/dps stances for tanks

[Aana]

Oh good lord. Math people.

Bloodspiller tooltip copypasta from official 14 site:
Delivers an attack with a potency of 400.
Dark Arts Potency: 540
Grit Potency: 475
Dark Arts+Grit Potency: 650
Blood Gauge Cost: 50
Dark Arts fades upon execution.

Out of grit: 400 pot. Dark Arts 540
In Grit: 475/650

Grit Tooltip:
Reduces damage taken by 20%, while reducing damage dealt by 20% and increasing enmity.
Effect ends upon reuse.

In grit with -20% damage penalty (80% effectiveness):
475*0.8=380
650*0.8=520

TLDR:
Grit: 380/520
NoGrit: 400/540

NonGrit bloodspiller is 20 pot higher. Original release bloodspiller WAS the exact same pot. They have tweaked it like 2-3 times since then. It is no longer equivalent for whatever reason.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

That's mathematically impossible. 650 -20% = 520, Bloodspiller has 540 potency out of Grit. The only instance where a Grit Bloodspiller will be higher than a non-Grit one is if you Direct Hit / Crit / both on the Grit one and not on the non-Grit one.

With all thing being equal, you are correct, but there's a ton of instances even without DH/CRIT/etc where Grit Bloodspiller can hit higher than a non-grit one if we assume things are not always equal. There's damage variance which can add +5%/-5% to the attack. In addition, if a person isn't really paying attention to raid buffs/enemy debuffs, they might be getting those Grit Bloodspillers under Trick attack/Hypercharge/Balance while their non-grit ones aren't receiving raid buffs. It's easy to see why one could perceive that their Bloodspillers under Grit are hitting harder if they're unaware of all the circumstances which could be leading to it.

But yes, everything equal, Non-Grit Bloodspiller will always hit harder.

Yeah, but you could at least, ya know, finish leveling up your tanks in this game. Otherwise I just don't think you have a complete picture of the tank scene with only 51 PLD, 52 WAR, and 62 DRK.. Like, you're literally in the easiest content in the game.

It's pretty to understand and see the max level of a role's scene even if you don't have those roles at max level. Tooltips, other player's experiences/opinions and discussions all paint extremely clear pictures. Outside of SCH being dragged to 70 with my SMN when I was leveling it, I haven't touched a healer since SB started and I know exactly how the max level scene for healers looks like due to friends/raid mates and guild discussions.

[zipzo]

Yeah, but you could at least, ya know, finish leveling up your tanks in this game. Otherwise I just don't think you have a complete picture of the tank scene with only 51 PLD, 52 WAR, and 62 DRK.. Like, you're literally in the easiest content in the game.

Tanking needs to be both accessible and rewarding. The basics of tanking need to be easy enough for any player to handle, pick up quick and go. It would be a detriment to the community if tanking was overly complicated early on, it would eventually drive players away and make level/dungeon grinding more miserable than it already is. I'm not saying is "perfectly accessible" right now, there's always room for improvement, but if you were to remove tank stances it would certainly make it less accessible and more complicated, for no good reason.

Again, your ad hom is a poor rebuttal to my (admittedly bulletproof and objective) argument.

So you're worried about it becoming tougher for bad players?

Is that all? I'm just clarifying that this is your entire argument.

[whiskeybravo]

It's pretty to understand and see the max level of a role's scene even if you don't have those roles at max level. Tooltips, other player's experiences/opinions and discussions all paint extremely clear pictures. Outside of SCH being dragged to 70 with my SMN when I was leveling it, I haven't touched a healer since SB started and I know exactly how the max level scene for healers looks like due to friends/raid mates and guild discussions.

OK, but are you going to the healer forums and advocating for the removal/change of abilities to better suit your playstyle? Would you be taken seriously if you were? Example: I'll take that comment as you not typically going to run as healer, but if you did join a v3s or v4s group - are you going to instantly know how to keep from overhealing, when to shield tanks, how to keep up max dps while doing so, exact MP management, etc etc? I highly doubt it. You may be familiar with the "scene" that you hear from friends, but it doesn't mean you can just step in and fill that role without putting in the practice. I feel similarly towards the OP, claiming tank stance isn't needed when they've barely done any content at all - even if they've heard about it all from their friends.

Tool tips can also change as you level. For example, when you first start leveling SAM it has no positional requirements. As you unlock traits, Kenki bonuses are added. So, looking at lv50 SAM tooltips isn't going to give a complete picture of how SAM functions at lv70. I don't think anything like this changes for tanks specifically, but still.

Again, your ad hom is a poor rebuttal to my (admittedly bulletproof and objective) argument.

So you're worried about it becoming tougher for bad players?

Is that all? I'm just clarifying that this is your entire argument.

I'd consider it more of an argument from authority rather than ad hom, but either way, no, it's not my entire argument nor a correct interpretation of what I wrote. What I did say, again, is that tanking needs to be both accessible and rewarding (to keep/make tanking popular). Removing tank stance does not make tanking more accessible to new players, nor does it provide any reward to higher-skilled player already tanking without it.

You're not advocating for just some minor change, you're asking to replace the whole system in existence. There better be a good reason for wanting that change, and something even better to replace it. You've failed to demonstrate either IMO. Example:

Keep the meters/gauges/whatever for the special mechanics involved with them, but replace the stances with, say, more interesting abilities that must be weaved in to our rotation.

Define "interesting". What starts out interesting usually always devolves into "press X button at Y time during the rotation" and never changes.

Tank stance isn't exactly needed but it's also not useless. It has a place, but that place is both mechanically uninteresting and scarce. You don't have to be a tank main to understand this.

Think about that for a second. Tank stance is mechanically uninteresting? So just delete it. Now you have one stance. Only one stance. That makes it more interesting?

[Kabooa]

I feel similarly towards the OP, claiming tank stance isn't needed when they've barely done any content at all - even if they've heard about it all from their friends. .

Tank stance isn't exactly needed but it's also not useless. It has a place, but that place is both mechanically uninteresting and scarce. You don't have to be a tank main to understand this.