Is Fordola the monster Lyse says she is?

[Mysterysword]

snip

So here's your M. O. as I see it:

1. Take established facts, or lore, or scenes from the game, and deliberately twist or otherwise misinterpret them to suit your worldview.
2. Have other people correct you and point out how you've misinterpreted these facts.
3. Whine and call them all meanies who refuse to agree to disagree, or better yet, just plain agree with you.

I'm not sure whether you're here for discussion or just plain argument, but either way, there are reasons why I call you a troll.

But I will say this: This is not about you being such a Garleophile. This is about the fact that you are a massive hypocrite in refusing to actually argue with or respond to people who disagree with you. If you're gonna post objectively wrong interpretations of facts, people are going to respond and point out your mistakes. That is exactly the kind of discussion you seem to want so much, yet you then turn around and claim it's somehow not.

[Quor]

So here's your M. O. as I see it:

1. Take established facts, or lore, or scenes from the game, and deliberately twist or otherwise misinterpret them to suit your worldview.
2. Have other people correct you and point out how you've misinterpreted these facts.
3. Whine and call them all meanies who refuse to agree to disagree, or better yet, just plain agree with you.

I'm not sure whether you're here for discussion or just plain argument, but either way, there are reasons why I call you a troll.

But I will say this: This is not about you being such a Garleophile. This is about the fact that you are a massive hypocrite in refusing to actually argue with or respond to people who disagree with you. If you're gonna post objectively wrong interpretations of facts, people are going to respond and point out your mistakes. That is exactly the kind of discussion you seem to want so much, yet you then turn around and claim it's somehow not.

Reading my mind there.

[Alleo]

If one does not appreciate snark they should maybe stop using it themselves..otherwise it makes one just feel that one side is allowed to "attack" others (and yes this happened more than enough..I mean who said that this forum is bad because there is a echo chamber and kinda made us look like we are sheep just because we disagree with that person?) and the other is not. Both should stop that but as long as some use this they should not be surprised to get the same medicine back. Also stop with this agree to disagree part..if one decides to completely go off topic and post about Garlemald and maybe even wrong information, they should be quite aware that they are the first reason if a topic derails into off topic discussion..just because others answer the first off topic post does not mean that the first poster has not started it and thus is not responsible for this.

Also on more than one situation where it was not off topic people have tried to use good arguments, taking their time to write it down, only to have it completely ignored by some..either you want a discussion which means that someone does not only post their own opinion but also try to understand the position of the other ones and maybe answer their points. Ignoring those points that may go against your view will not help with a good healthy discussion..this will only lead to arguments for the sake of arguments. I dont agree with everything that Cilia or others say (which is kinda normal..) but I always try to take in someones view and try to take my time and try to use good arguments if I believe different. There might have been posts from me where I should have written it a bit different but I also always try to keep out the snark as much as possible..but yet I got my share of true personal attacks back as a thanks.

Barely anyone wants the complete destruction of the whole Garlemald nation but right now they are the bad ones that are taking over the world for really flimsy reasons..nobody knows if SE will ever decide to make them more gray or even forced allies so arguing for something that we dont even know will happen is bad for discussions that should at least be based on some facts..also just because they has some villains in other FF games that turned to the good side (and seeing the posts it seems that this can be interpreted rather different too) does not mean that they will do the same here..You can like the bad guys..really..there is nothing wrong with that..but they are still the bad ones and trying to paint them in a better light than they are will not change that fact..only time will tell how they will turn out in the end.

On topic:

I do kinda wonder what they will do with Fordola. We seem to get another echo version of her past (with getting hurt by stones), so it seems that they kinda want to explain her view more. Yet still Fordola herself does not really understand why she is still alive and I am kinda wondering if letting her live will turn out horrible. Our Arenvald has some serious kind of death flags for me..please dont do this SE. Q_Q

[Theodric]

Well, I'm back from the funeral. It's taking a lot of restraint not to make this post a lot more blunt than it will end up being.

I've only ever used 'snark' in response to it being used on myself - and I've since ceased doing it altogether. At this point, it's just harassment - I've asked a certain poster for an apology in the past for branding me a troll and they have yet to actually deliver on that. As to why they continue to engage me if they believe me to be such is anyone's guess.

Since moving to Cerberus - which, unlike Balmung is easy to make new characters on - I've also had messages in-game from low level alts saying stuff that is bizarrely similar to what is said here. It's pretty creepy. Obviously I can't tell who is doing it, though they've been reported. Clearly it's someone who either posts here or lurks here at any rate.

The cycle needs to cease. My request isn't an unreasonable one - to agree to disagree on issues regarding the lore that are completely subjective. It's clear neither side are going to change their minds, or at least it's very unlikely. That's fine, I have no problem with that - though respect goes both ways. You don't need to change my view of a faction or a specific character. Just like I don't need to change anybody else's view of a character or faction.

Just put me on ignore or something if you're not willing to engage in a debate with me in a civil manner. Like I said, this place is rapidly becoming a biased echo chamber and it's becoming irritating. Especially with the actual dislike some of you seem to have for someone daring to have a different interpretation of subjective elements of the game's very nuanced lore. It's pretty creepy at this point. So, again, I am respectfully requesting that those involved cease and desist. Don't engage me if you're not willing to act with dignity, please.

[Mysterysword]

I've asked a certain poster for an apology in the past for branding me a troll and they have yet to actually deliver on that. As to why they continue to engage me if they believe me to be such is anyone's guess.

1. Too bad, so sad; I'm not about to apologise for stating what I believe to be the truth. Once again: you keep saying you want a reasonable discussion, then turn around and ignore others who offer you discussion or insult them for disagreeing with you. If that's not trolling, then I don't know what is.

2. Please, I have much better things to do with my time than stalk you. The only reason why I spoke up in this thread was because I find your hypocrisy irritating. Kind of like how you claim you only speak up because you find this so-called echo chamber irritating.

And once again: It is not your "different interpretation" that people dislike, it is your blatant hypocrisy that I and others have repeatedly outlined, that you refuse to so much as acknowledge.

You want this "harassment" to stop? It's very simple. You don't have to stop posting, you don't even have to stop being a Garleophile. Just stop with the hypocrisy and actually acknowledge when people offer you reasonable discussion. But judging from your track record so far, that's impossible.

[Theodric]

Once again, I will politely request that you cease and desist. Please also stop pretending as if you know me well enough to brand me a 'Garleophile', too. You don't. My current favourite character - Hien- isn't even a Garlean and Garlemald is only one part of what I enjoy about the setting or bring up and discuss. To claim otherwise is simply deceptive.

I'm not entirely certain what is 'unreasonable' about wanting a discussion where we remain civil and agree to disagree. It's not your job to change my mind about the morality of fictional characters or factions. Just as it isn't my job to change anybody else's mind. I have no interest in tiresome arguments that involve a dead horse that has been beaten to death so many times little remains but dust. I suspect the feeling is mutual - and by the words of many involved, they have confirmed as much in the past. So, again, i'm just going to lay that offer on the table and if it isn't embraced I'm just going to assume that the priority isn't actually a discussion at all - it's trying to 'win' a manufactured argument even at the cost of spite and bile aimed at specific posters.

[YianKutku]

So, again, i'm just going to lay that offer on the table and if it isn't embraced I'm just going to assume that the priority isn't actually a discussion at all - it's trying to 'win' a manufactured argument even at the cost of spite and bile aimed at specific posters.

You say this, but then you also say this:

Like I said, this place is rapidly becoming a biased echo chamber and it's becoming irritating. Especially with the actual dislike some of you seem to have for someone daring to have a different interpretation of subjective elements of the game's very nuanced lore. It's pretty creepy at this point.

So I don't even know what you mean.

(I'm still asking for the citation that Reddit agrees with you. Last I checked, the Lore subforum has gained a reputation on the FFXIV subreddit for being delusionally pro-Garlemald, which seems to be counter to what you claim.)

[Theodric]

It's a real shame that tone policing appears to be more highly valued than actually putting an end to these tiresome debates. They're clearly not going anywhere and neither side is wrong - I've never stated otherwise. I'll have to get back to you on the Reddit thing, digging through my post history on a site I post on frequently isn't exactly a priority for me at the moment. With that said, it's a bit silly to claim this place is 'Pro-Garlemald'. That has never been the issue, the problem stems from both sides in a very complicated and nuanced debate refusing to agree to disagree on matters that are almost entirely subjective. Until that is acknowledged, nothing is going to change around here. If it's a matter of pride, then feel free to simply place me on ignore.

At any rate, I made a conscious effort to breathe some new life and discussion into a variety of threads. I suggest you guys do the same. It's a bit jarring that threads like this end up getting 20+ pages yet other threads unrelated to Garlemald and/or morality rarely experience the same luxury. Perhaps that is something we can compromise and agree upon...?

[CaesarCV]

Personally, I think that this thread is getting off course. The discourse on morality, Garlemald, and the like are more or less on topic. However, attacks on specific persons are not acceptable. Let's focus on the game and the surrounding lore discussion, not particular people. We can all make our arguments and counterarguments without resorting to ad hominem or referring to people as hypocrites and the like. Let's all just take one step back and take a few deep breaths to calm down, alright?

[Jyera]

Theodric, I'm not interested in ad hominem aggression, for what it's worth. I simply request that if agreeing to disagree is the outcome of my input, I'd like to be present for the discussion that wraps up that way. It makes disagreeing much more interesting.

I'd also like to take the opportunity to make my disclaimer that Garlemald is very nearly my favourite subject in the game, my favourite characters are often Garleans, and I love them all dearly,
but feel great frustration that all the really interesting discussion about them gets polarised into 'kill all garleans' or 'garlemald did nothing wrong' //coughs