Is Fordola the monster Lyse says she is?

[Quor]

But I find that a bit hard to do in FFXIV for obvious reasons such as the game purposefully putting you, and your customized character, in the shoes of the hero. And somehow I'm not experiencing this world as well as I did for other worlds, from the perspectives of main characters in other Final Fantasy games. Perhaps ... I'm just not very good at experiencing, but I always have this feeling they experienced their worlds much better than I do.

And thus in terms of pure experience, FFXIV does not quite compete with the other traditional Final Fantasy games. It's just a niche for people who want to try out the WoL concept in first-person.

(Edit: It's probably just me though. I liked Witcher 3 more because there was already a main character. Mass Effect 2 was ok because Shepard was more or less a preset personality as well. But Skyrim was just a bit weird, as it was first-person without a preset main character. So I do find it easier to enjoy the story when I don't bring my own prejudices into it, when I'm not playing it as "myself".)

Well, like Cilia said, wants are infinite, resources are limited. This is part of why I don't get the "Let's make peace with Garlemald" thing that some people push. The basis of any good story is conflict, and Garlemald is the main antagonist for most people in the realm. The Ascians, while antagonists as well, are not widely known, and certainly not as immediately dangerous to the vast majority of people as the Garleans are. Existential "Rejoining" is important to everyone of course, but it's hard to care about an abstract concept like that when you have the very immediate specter of famine or disease or a gunblade to your head. Thus, from a meta story building perspective, Garlemald as an antagonist is imperative for the time being. Peace may come at a later date, if a sufficiently dangerous antagonist presents itself and warrants a unification of world powers in order to fight it off.

As far as "killing is sinful goes" I have to disagree with that statement unequivocally. Killing is a part of life. In fact, it's necessary for life to exist. Even here in RL we understand that killing is, sometimes, justified and necessary. This is best represented in the "malum in se" category of laws, specifically the exceptions commonly applied for physical self-defense and in some cases the defense of others. Moreso than that though, much of our killing has been done in the context of a war. As nice as it is to think everyone can hold hands and sing the Eorzean version of Kumbaya, he fact is when you have an aggressor who believes they are in a position of strength, then the aggressor has no reason to stop unless they can be shown to be facing someone/something that has greater strength than said aggressor. It's the final point alone that justifies actions taken against Garlemald. Garlemald has been a big world-wide bully, subjugating peoples and continents left, right and center. They, in a nutshell, started it, and they won't see any reason to end it unless we show them a reason. Thus, as a matter of self-defense (and indeed, self-preservation), the war will go on until Garlemald says "uncle."

Now, it's certain that the WoL has killed a lot of things/people. It's also certain that these killings were done in the name of either protecting ourselves, or protecting others. Every primal we have slain (and in some cases, the followers of those primals) has been for both the immediate relief of others ("Yay we won't be tempered by Ifrit/devoured by a giant whale in the sky/swallowed by a tidal wave") and for the long-term safety of Eorzea as a functioning ecosystem. Every battle we've fought with Garlemald has been to undo and/or prevent and/or stop whatever world-ending madness they have sought to incur upon our star. Happily, many of our actions have the side effect of liberating conquered peoples, freeing innocents from oppression, and just generally making the world an overall better place for a very large number of people.

Hence, the killing we do isn't sinful, because the killing we do is in the service of bettering the lives of not just ourselves, but of many many other people. "Ye will know him by his fruits." This particular paraphrased passage refers to the Devil, in the sense that you will know who is the Devil (or a servant of the Devil) by the fruits of their labors. Said another way, actions speak louder than words, and actions have consequences. Ye will know the hero by the fruits of his/her labors, and the fruits of our labors have, universally, brought happiness, contentment, freedom, and general positive effects to a huge number of people. Furthermore, the people who's lives we have changed for the better almost always suffered as a result of the actions taken by an outside aggressor of some sort (usually Garlemald, but there are other, smaller actors, like many of the shadier types in Ul'dah and LL).

We're all monsters

I think it's more accurate to say that we all have the capability to be a monster. However, I disagree with what Lyse said about Zenos not being born the way he was. I mean, maybe it''s true, but I do believe that there are beings that can be born "bad" or "evil" or what have you, and I'm not just talking about primals or other supernatural beings either. Maybe there's some tragic back story to Zenos, or maybe he was just an entitled little shit his entire life and what we saw was merely the culmination of that.

But, as I said above, what matters in the end is the consequences of our actions. Thus far, the consequences of our actions as the WoL have been largely positive. Even the DRK questline, while exploring the weight and negative aspects of our actions, shows that the people who's lives we touched were able to move forward from their experiences in a positive way. Now, to clarify, this doesn't mean "the ends justify the means." As the WoL we take great pains to avoid needless suffering outside of the theater of war.

Taking all this into consideration is why I believe that Lyse was correct in calling Fordola a monster. All of Fordola's actions up to that point wore on Lyse; her discovery that Fordola fired upon her own men was the final straw that broke Lyse's metaphorical back. In that moment, Fordola became a monster. It's a testament to Lyse's growth as a character that she has opted to take her prisoner, setting the stage for a possible redemption and personal reformation arc. Old Lyse would have wanted to punch her way to a solution, while new Lyse wants to find a way to bring every Ala Mhigan together, however difficult that may be.

[Theodric]

It should be pretty obvious as to why people want to make peace with Garlemald. Aside from it already being established that there's more to Garlemald than initially meets the eye they're a very 'human' foe. So it's more than a little jarring when the protagonists bend over backwards to make peace with the Dravanians - who aren't even native to the planet - yet view Garlemald in such utter contempt. Yes, they're 'invaders' but they became that way after suffering for a great many years as a displaced people. So it is by no means a black or white scenario.

Then, of course, there's the simple fact that Final Fantasy games have a long track record of compelling antagonist/rival characters and factions that gain no shortage of praise and adoration for being interesting and worthy of being kept around and allowed to tell their part of the story. The likes of Rufus Shinra, General Beatrix, Gabranth come to mind where individual characters are concerned. Then, for factions, there's the Shinra Corporation and the Archadian Empire. Neither of which are destroyed or dismantled in their entirety by the end of their respective games.

...and if nothing else, it'd be great for the story to have a bit more depth to it than this:



The 'neat little package' has been a common criticism of the story as far back as 2.0. I post on a number of sites other than this one and whilst this portion of the community is often an echo chamber on large sites such as Reddit there's no shortage of people expressing the same desires and concerns.

I guess some people can brush it off as being impossible to please everybody if they so desire but that's not what people are asking for at all.

As for what 4.1 and beyond brings, that remains to be seen. I'm cautiously optimistic - though I do hope the stakes for the protagonists start being raised a little higher.

[Jyera]

So it's more than a little jarring when the protagonists bend over backwards to make peace with the Dravanians - who aren't even native to the planet - yet view Garlemald in such utter contempt.

The Dravanians didn't try to conquer and enslave every corner of Hydaelyn. The critical twist of Heavensward was that the violence of the Dravanian Horde was preceded by eras of peace between dragon and humankind, recall, which was shattered by human betrayal, murder, and theft.

Yes, they're 'invaders' but they became that way after suffering for a great many years as a displaced people. So it is by no means a black or white scenario.

Forceful seizure of lands, resources, and human capital, cultural erasure, enslavement, and disenfranchisement are not justification or even a sympathetic response to the wrongs of a distant past. That Garlean officials have offered this as a reason for their actions and as evidence of their inherent 'superiority' is exactly the kind of jingoistic victim narrative one might expect from an imperialistic dictatorship with their origins.

[Quor]

It should be pretty obvious as to why people want to make peace with Garlemald. Aside from it already being established that there's more to Garlemald than initially meets the eye they're a very 'human' foe. So it's more than a little jarring when the protagonists bend over backwards to make peace with the Dravanians - who aren't even native to the planet - yet view Garlemald in such utter contempt. Yes, they're 'invaders' but they became that way after suffering for a great many years as a displaced people. So it is by no means a black or white scenario.

Theo, in my opinion, you are almost pathologically Garleophilic. You bring up "diplomacy" and the Garleans at almost every opportunity, often in threads that are, at best, tangentially related to either of those two subjects, and even in some cases you'll work it into discussions that are pretty far removed.

Addressing this first paragraph though:

Dravanians - outside of Nidhogg's brood during the Dragonsong War, largely uninvolved with the affairs of the realm. They do their thing, stay out of people's way, and in some cases (i.e. Middy) act as protectors to portions of the planet. edit: Also what Jyera said.

Garleans - yeah, it's tragic that they got beat on by a bunch of different people 100+ years ago. Were those people Eorzeans? Were they Domans? Did Doma have a vast Empire that extended northward to Ilsabard? Did Ala Mhigo engage in a heretofore-unknown and astoundingly successful campaign to their east and north, whereupon they preyed relentlessly on the hapless Garleans for a couple of generations? According to all the information we know now, NO. None of this happened. None of the Eorzean city states have had anything but cursory contact with the Garleans prior to their initial invasion. Ul'dah and Gridania were simply too far removed (and Grid in particular was so insular) that they would have never come into military contact with the Empire prior to 1.0. Ishgard was busy fighting their thousand year war, so they certainly had no reason to engage in a second front with a nation thousands of malms away. Sharlayan was simply a research colony before being abandoned, and while the corsairs of LL may have raided Garlean boats prior to the formation of the Thallosacracy, there certainly was never any formal military action taken under the banner of the city state. Raiders gonna raid, and the pirates of LL raided indiscriminately.

Simply put, what justification did Garlemald have to invade Eorzea? What did Eorzea (and Doma!) do to warrant Garlean aggression? The answer is: fucking nothing. They did not do a damn thing. The entirety of the war being perpetrated now is based 100% on naked Garlean aggression. Which, since we're talking about how "human" the Empire is, I'll remind you that the every pureblood Garlean we've met with the exception of Cid has been very forward in their belief that non-Garleans are "savages" and thus, little better than feral animals. Hell, the Empire has stated on at least a few occasions that they want to effectively wipe out all "non-spoken" races, i.e. the beast tribes, although that seems to have been hand-waved by a lot of Garleophilics. Casual genocide of innocent parties is ok because at some point in time in the past the Garleans got their shit pushed in eh?

No. Unequivocally, no. While I maintain that there is a definite possibility for a more "gray" aspect of Garlemald to show itself, until we see actual Garleans (besides Cid) who display disgust against the policies of the Empire, then it's stupid to assume those people exist. Going off of what has been shown to us, again and again, is that the Garlean Empire believes itself to be the Twelve's gift to the world, and therefore infallible. They can do no wrong, have never done any wrong, and will never do any wrong. Pride comes before the fall, and their hubris is great indeed.

Then, of course, there's the simple fact that Final Fantasy games have a long track record of compelling antagonist/rival characters and factions that gain no shortage of praise and adoration for being interesting and worthy of being kept around and allowed to tell their part of the story. The likes of Rufus Shinra, General Beatrix, Gabranth come to mind where individual characters are concerned. Then, for factions, there's the Shinra Corporation and the Archadian Empire. Neither of which are destroyed or dismantled in their entirety by the end of their respective games.

You're forgetting a very key point that I, and others, have brought up time and time again. Shinra? Archadia? They both didn't stop doing Bad Things until A. a lot of people died, and B. some sort of greater threat presented itself and forced them to change. Shinra Corp. was great in Advent Children, with Rufus heroically throwing himself off a building to deny Jenova's head to her "children." Prior to that, during FF7 itself, Rufus was basically the lite version of his dad. When Rufus took over the corporation, he didn't just stop using the Mako reactors or trying to preserve the Lifestream and what not. That came after the fuckhueg Meteor that came within a few hundred meters of obliterating the world. The same thing applies to Archadia; once enough bad people were dead and a big enough threat had made itself manifest, the Empire changed. Likewise with Beatrix; only after she witnesses Brahne's madness first hand - several times - does she have a change of heart. In the meantime, Beatrix defends her queen and her queen's actions while she obliterates Cleyra, summons Atomos to eat a good chunk of Lindblum, and almost causes the destruction of her home city of Alexandria. It's only after Alexandria is nearly destroyed that Beatrix finally wakes the fuck up. It was fine when Cleyra was being wiped off the map, but once her hometown is threatened Beatrix finally sees the light. Sucks for Cleyra!

In short, the nice way of saying this is that you're trying to put the cart before the horse here. The Garleans have received no such lesson yet. They've been bruised, but they haven't been pushed to the point where they realize that their pride is their fall.

...and if nothing else, it'd be great for the story to have a bit more depth to it than this:



The 'neat little package' has been a common criticism of the story as far back as 2.0. I post on a number of sites other than this one and whilst this portion of the community is often an echo chamber on large sites such as Reddit there's no shortage of people expressing the same desires and concerns.

You're kidding right? That's clearly Tataru being Tataru. She's always had that "cheery understatement" way of referring to the super heroic shit we Scions accomplish. She helps make sure our heads don't get too big.

I guess some people can brush it off as being impossible to please everybody if they so desire but that's not what people are asking for at all.

As for what 4.1 and beyond brings, that remains to be seen. I'm cautiously optimistic - though I do hope the stakes for the protagonists start being raised a little higher.

It's not a matter of "can't please everyone" as much as it is the "it's not my favorite way!!!" crowd being unable to understand that they are attempting to shoehorn something into the plot at a time and place where it will kill the story beyond repair.

For 20 years (Ala Mhigo) and 25 years (Doma) the Empire has ruled with an iron fist. The city states of Eorzea were invaded not out of reprisal for some past wrong that they inflicted upon the Garleans, but simply because the Garleans had the power and the will to invade. Naked ambition was the true impetus for the war, with the mistaken belief that somehow, under the "wise and just" guidance of the Garlean hand the world would be made a better place. In truth, the Empire just wants what Thordan wanted. The only thing different is the means to that end.

There may come a time where things shift and we are shown Garlemald in another light. But that time is certainly not now. You continually push to skip to a later book in the series, ignorant of the fact that you need to let the story - and it's characters - tell itself. We are currently on book 4. How many books will there be? I don't know. But what you're asking won't be resolved during this book. It may not be resolved during the next one either. The end of book 5 is probably the earliest time we would see a setup wherein Garlemald becomes a sympathetic entity. Any sooner than that and you are hand-waving and forgiving atrocity after atrocity. And I, for one, don't want to see a repeat of the WoD debacle.

[YianKutku]

The 'neat little package' has been a common criticism of the story as far back as 2.0. I post on a number of sites other than this one and whilst this portion of the community is often an echo chamber on large sites such as Reddit there's no shortage of people expressing the same desires and concerns.

I'm very active on the FFXIV subreddit, and I have definitely not seen the alleged lack of shortage of people expressing the sentiments you claim.

It is a rare occasion that the subreddit brings up the plotline and lore, as opposed to game mechanics.

[Cilia]

Oh, how I've missed your witty repartee.

It should be pretty obvious as to why people want to make peace with Garlemald. Aside from it already being established that there's more to Garlemald than initially meets the eye they're a very 'human' foe. So it's more than a little jarring when the protagonists bend over backwards to make peace with the Dravanians - who aren't even native to the planet - yet view Garlemald in such utter contempt. Yes, they're 'invaders' but they became that way after suffering for a great many years as a displaced people. So it is by no means a black or white scenario.

Peace is ideal; however, fighting against an invasive militaristic dictatorship (be it in self-defense or for independence) should not be wrong.

Midgardsormr is alien. Dravanians are an alien species, but the Dravanians themselves are native to Hydaelyn.

The peoples Garlemald is now attacking and subjugating were almost certainly not responsible for Garlemald's suffering. Doma and Ala Mhigo are far removed from their homeland in northern Ilsabard.

Then, of course, there's the simple fact that Final Fantasy games have a long track record of compelling antagonist/rival characters and factions that gain no shortage of praise and adoration for being interesting and worthy of being kept around and allowed to tell their part of the story. The likes of Rufus Shinra, General Beatrix, Gabranth come to mind where individual characters are concerned. Then, for factions, there's the Shinra Corporation and the Archadian Empire. Neither of which are destroyed or dismantled in their entirety by the end of their respective games.

... let's get into this, shall we?

Case of Rufus Shinra
-Declares he wants to rule through fear rather than money like his father. Tries to execute Barret and Tifa, on live worldwide television, as scapegoats for Meteor. Aids the protagonists in relatively small ways, like getting them out of the collapsing North Crater and firing the Sister Ray at Sephiroth's barrier, and without offering the protagonists a chance to join forces. Shows no remorse for his actions or desire to reform Shinra during VII. Presumed dead at the end of VII; only comes around during Advent Children.

Case of General Beatrix
-Assisted in the needless, aggressive sacking of Burmecia and Cleyra under Brahne's orders. Misgivings extend mostly from wanting to be the one to lead the charge and claim victory, rather than relying on a Black Mage army and eidolons. Does not condemn the utter annihilation of Cleyra at any point. Only comes around when the protagonists are able to convince her beyond a shadow of a doubt that Brahne intended to kill the Princess, thus Brahne is too far gone to truly care about Alexandria's well-being.

Case of Judge Magister Gabranth
-Driven by hatred of his twin brother for the vast majority of the story. A broken man who actually tries to goad Ashe into committing genocide on the Archadians. Remains loyal to Archadaes despite the Empire destroying his homeland, and only comes around when he considers Vayne a bigger threat to his charge (Larsa) than the protagonists. (Admittedly I only played about half of XII; I did not enjoy the combat system and quit in the Sochen Cave Palace.)

Case of Shin-ra Electric Power Company
-Makes no efforts to amend its wrongdoing throughout VII and, indeed, directly or indirectly responsible for absolutely everything that goes wrong during the game and greater Compilation. Presumed defunct at the end of VII; all of its leaders sans Reeve and Palmer are presumed dead. (Rufus: presumed dead after Diamond WEAPON's attack on Midgar. Heidegger and Scarlet: killed after attacking the protagonists with the Proud Clod. Reeve: unknown. Palmer: unknown, incompetent anyway. Hojo: killed by the protagonists at the end of Disc 2.) Only comes around during the Compilation which, remind, was not planned when VII was released.

... I will give you the Archadian Empire, as I do not know enough about it to really comment, nor do I really care to know enough.

Regardless, nobody has called for the complete destruction of the Garlean Empire anyway. All that is asked is that it stop invading other nations, get off the genocide train, and relinquish control of the provinces that do not want its rule like Doma and Ala Mhigo (and Dalmasca, it would seem). That's all, and should not be too much to ask for.

...and if nothing else, it'd be great for the story to have a bit more depth to it than this:

Tataru has a penchant for (over)simplifying things. It isn't over, because the fight for truth and justice is never over so long as tyrants and madmen continue to be a threat. However, the protagonists have accomplished their goals for the time being and are focused on structural and social rebuilding; further aggression against the Empire is unlikely to happen any time soon, if at all.

As for what 4.1 and beyond brings, that remains to be seen. I'm cautiously optimistic - though I do hope the stakes for the protagonists start being raised a little higher.

The protagonists having their homelands threatened to be subjugated and/or destroyed isn't high enough? How high is high enough?

[VargasVermillion]

My issue with Garlemalds part in the story being just another antagonist to beat down isn't the problem, it's more that they are shown to be easy to challenge, I'm expected to believe that the WoL can run into castrum abania without much resistance just to cause an upset? I mean sure the WoL is essentially a demigod so that's all good but the other half of the scions just as a group of 3/4? c'mon...

The empire in FF12 for example may have had a ragtag group of people fighting them but never under the context of an actual war or battlefield scenario unless there are ample distractions in place. That is the case with castrum meridianum and Doma castle but the cutscenes have a poor build up and make the whole thing look underwhelming and pathetic on Garelmalds part and this applies for pretty much all similar cases. I am a sucker for big battles though.

The whole make peace thing will happen in the end, it's pretty obvious that we'll get to that eventually, it doesn't seem like our style to beat them until they can't possibly fight back although we'll probably have some big fight with the emperor or some super weapon first.

[TinyRedLeaf]

I made a thing! The Ultimate 'I Love the Garlemald Empire' Thread

Please direct all Garlean propaganda diplomacy there instead, to help more unwashed barbarians know the benefits of Empire!

[Theodric]

That doesn't really solve the core issue around these parts, though. Threads aren't being sidetracked solely by people praising Garlemald. They're being sidetracked due to the same handful of individuals across both sides of the tiresome debates refusing to agree to disagree. Perhaps instead the proposed thread can be re-purposed into a place of discussion for the morality of various in-game factions and characters? That'd serve to contain the discussion points and prevent them overtaking other threads. Especially since whilst they're not irrelevant to the lore itself they're really just about various poster's thoughts, feelings and opinions on subject matter that is, well, subjective.

A thread devoted purely to fawning over Garlemald doesn't interest me. When I say I loathe echo chambers, it means I loathe echo chambers regardless of what side they're coming from.

...and I'll say this once: I really, really do not appreciate the snark. I've been in bed all week with the flu and I have a funeral to go to tomorrow. I'm not saying this to guilt trip people. Just to remind them that there's an actual person behind the screen - one who is requesting for the harassment to cease. I've asked for the snark and not so subtle jabs to stop in the past and I shall do so again now. I will also respectfully nudge people in the direction of 'agreeing to disagree' once more with that in mind. As I said, it's tiresome. It's boring. It's driving people away from this board and it's making me just not want to bother posting here at all. It's clear neither side is likely to change the other's mind and doing so is pointless anyway because then there won't be any debates to be had at all.

Yet as was mentioned earlier we're dealing with subject matter that is entirely subjective and largely open to any given player's personal interpretation. If you want to see a particular character or faction as irredeemable? Go ahead. Nobody's stopping you. On the other hand, if someone sees a character or faction as a misunderstood or troubled hero then that's perfectly fine too. What shouldn't be happening, though, is the attempts to try and guilt trip or treat posters like they're spouting Wrong Think when discussing these complicated, nuanced issues. That goes for both sides.

[Kusanagi7]

I hope going foward with fordola that her fate is decided by the ala mhigans and not by us the wol cuz if it is us that ultimately decides her fate it would be lame imo.