May I present, "LMG - Light Machinist Guide for PvP"

[Geryth]

So I did some testing with advanced combat tracker, and found some amazing things. Firstly, let me say that this is in no way definitive or perfect. I have limited play time every night and I don't want to spend all my precious free time on this, so my sample size is small. Also, I did my best with rotations, but they probably aren't perfectly efficient or optimal. And lastly, these tests were done with each scenario going balls to the wall as much DPS as possible in the allotted time frame. In Frontlines you aren't exactly going to do that, unless maybe you are at an ice.

Lastly - the DPS is the most important statistic here. I tried to time it my best but total damage might include an extra attack or auto attack inside a second after the time frame ended, but the overall DPS is a good consistent value. I tried 3 different scenarios over 3 different time frames of 12 seconds, 30 seconds, and 60 seconds:

Rotations used:
- Pre-loaded ammo bursting with stun gun
- No ammo leading with hot shots
- Pre-loaded ammo without stun gun into hot shots

Here's some numbers I pulled:

=============================================
12 seconds pre-loaded ammo with stun gun burst
- Sample instance: 15,934 total damage / 1282.93 DPS
Logs with rotation

12 seconds no ammo leading with hot shots
- Sample instance: 10,442 total damage / 870.17 DPS
Logs with rotation

12 seconds pre-loaded ammo into hots shots
- Sample instance: 11,736 total damage / 902.77 DPS
Logs with rotation

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30 seconds pre-loaded ammo with stun gun burst
- Sample instance: 24,351 total damage / 811.70 DPS
Logs with rotation

30 seconds no ammo leading with hot shots
- Sample instance: 21,961 total damage / 732.03 DPS
Logs with rotation

30 seconds pre-loaded ammo into hots shots
- Sample instance: 24,555 total damage / 818.50 DPS
Logs with rotation

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60 seconds pre-loaded ammo with stun gun burst
- Sample instance: 44,830 total damage / 747.17 DPS
Logs with rotation

60 seconds no ammo leading with hot shots
- Sample instance: 43,604 total damage / 726.73 DPS
Logs with rotation

60 seconds pre-loaded ammo into hot shots
- Sample Instance: 44,409 total damage / 728.02 DPS
Logs with rotation
=============================================

Again, I wouldn't call these numbers definitive, but they certainly are eye opening. Here's some key observations:

• The extra damage from the stun gun burst is so massive that the damage lost from the 10 second gauss barrel lock out isn't enough for other methods to overtake it
• Against conventional thinking pre-loading ammo, which delays your heat, does not amount to a loss of DPS. It's close enough to consider it a wash. The extra potency and reduced GCD from that ammo makes up for the delay in getting heat.
• All 3 methods stable out over about a minute time period, with a slight damage edge going to the stun gun burst rotation. This means over a 1 minute time period, such as fighting a big ice, all 3 methods will do about the same amount of damage.

I will also mention that after about the 60 minute mark, all 3 rotations even out and will basically be the same at this point where they are all playing the stay-heated dance, so the DPS for each will hang around 730 DPS.

The biggest take-away here I think is that pre-loading ammo actually doesn't lose you any DPS. In fact, the damage is remarkably close, even giving a small edge to pre-loaded ammo. With this in mind, from a pure damage perspective, pre-loading ammo or not basically makes no difference. If anything, pre-loading ammo is a great idea in case a contestable ice spawns to stun gun burst on. If not, then it doesn't matter, you're doing the same amount of damage at the start with pre-loaded ammo as you are leading into hot shots.

And I'll throw this disclaimer out a third time - I can be wrong. If someone puts together a more thorough set of data to prove me otherwise, then I'll change my mind about it. My philosophy is always to make the best decisions I can with the information I have. Before I was working on anecdotal experience, I think with these numbers I might pre-load every game now.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

There are no autos in PvP now, Stun Gun triggers Overheat which is a 10% buff thus damage will naturally be higher if and when you overheat. Unless you overheated on each sample, it's no good.

Look, just do what you like. I mean, wrong is wrong, but you won't be convinced besides. If you think wasting a cc on a stationary objective that doesn't hit back and poses no threat is such a great idea, be my guest. Might work for Shatter, but that wouldn't fly in any other mode, and is overall a waste of a good tool just for 10 seconds of 10% more damage that what you'd otherwise be able to sustain indefinitely, and without wasting your aoe stun for.

[Geryth]

There are no autos in PvP now, Stun Gun triggers Overheat which is a 10% buff thus damage will naturally be higher if and when you overheat. Unless you overheated on each sample, it's no good.

Why not? Your whole argument is to use it for CC, not damage. Unless you mean to overheat without using stun gun. That maybe a valid point, but would be awkward to fit in the heat dance. I did prove that the overheat damage makes up for the DPS loss of the 10 second heat lock out, so there might be some merit to that. You didn't pre-load though so becomes a matter of when to use your TP for quick reloads, theoritically it just shifts the quick reloads into the +10% damage window so you're only talking about a 25 potency increase for each QR - it might not be worth waiting to use your TP or WF long enough to hit overheat status without stun gun. It should be tested - be my guest.

Look, just do what you like. I mean, wrong is wrong, but you won't be convinced besides.

If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong and I'll absolutely be convinced and admit it as such. But I won't be convinced by theory crafting, which is all you've provided. Provide some data that shows me I'm wrong, and I'll take your side immediately. Your theory crafting was sound - I was even convinced that pre-loading without going for a contested ice was going to be a DPS loss and a bad idea, but I discovered that's not the case.

If you think wasting a cc on a stationary objective that doesn't hit back and poses no threat is such a great idea, be my guest. Might work for Shatter, but that wouldn't fly in any other mode, and is overall a waste of a good tool just for 10 seconds of 10% more damage that what you'd otherwise be able to sustain indefinitely, and without wasting your aoe stun for.

Again with the CC argument. Look it's 1 out of 4 positional tools we have, and it's on a 60 second cooldown. How often are you using a stun gun within the first 90 seconds of a game for CC? Either way, this part of the argument isn't quantifiable so to each his own on this piece. Agree to disagree.

And I never said this was a useful thing to do in any other mode. Though with my data, pre-loading on its own is actually not a DPS loss, so, it's not not useful either.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Theory crafting? How about experience? How about all the enemy MCHs I make short work of because I saw them waste their Stun Gun and I wasn't even in range? Or the ones who aren't doing the damage I'm doing (to THEM, not ice. If I wanna hit a training dummy, I have 2 in my yard)? OR the ones who try to fit all their damage into a 10 second window, fail to break ice or KO a player, then are at a loss AND without one of their best ccs because they wasted it to do damage they could've otherwise achieved without wasting it? Did you even WATCH the video?

You and several others even noted that it was generally a better thing to not do that, yet you're stubbornly trying to defend something that's situational at best. Situational, which I never disagreed and even said in the video might be necessary at times, but not something to rely on. This means it's generally NOT a good thing to do. Not in Shatter, and certainly not in any other mode, however much they are or aren't played.

But nah, you go ahead and keep doing that. I'll keep not doing it and teaching MCHs who want to be more useful than "top ice burst" for their team not to do that.

[Geryth]

Theory crafting? How about experience? How about all the enemy MCHs I make short work of because I saw them waste their Stun Gun and I wasn't even in range? Or the ones who aren't doing the damage I'm doing (to THEM, not ice. If I wanna hit a training dummy, I have 2 in my yard)? OR the ones who try to fit all their damage into a 10 second window, fail to break ice or KO a player, then are at a loss AND without one of their best ccs because they wasted it to do damage they could've otherwise achieved without wasting it? Did you even WATCH the video?

All theory crafting, all anecdotal, all more to do with general Frontlines knowledge and good PvP tact than optimizing how to start off in frontlines as a MCH. I've played hundreds of games doing both. I've run some numbers to try to see exactly how it affects damage. Pre-loading is actually way better than I thought it was.

You and several others even noted that it was generally a better thing to not do that, yet you're stubbornly trying to defend something that's situational at best. Situational, which I never disagreed and even said in the video might be necessary at times, but not something to rely on. This means it's generally NOT a good thing to do. Not in Shatter, and certainly not in any other mode, however much they are or aren't played.

I made those statements based on sound theorycrafting. Hit two hot shots then stay in heated status - otherwise you have to go through 3 ammo slots to get there. Sounds legit. In practice? Not all all. The damage is a wash. What does this mean? It means that in any mode, feast or frontlines, there is no harm in pre-loading bullets at all. Except in shatter, you can turn those pre-loaded bullets into stolen ice points, so yes, please please pre-load ammo in Shatter. Otherwise it makes absolutely no difference - your damage is the same. So pre-load or don't, it's all the same.

But nah, you go ahead and keep doing that. I'll keep not doing it and teaching MCHs who want to be more useful than "top ice burst" for their team not to do that.

Listen, I'm going to do what the best information we have says we should do. We had anecdotal experience so I just went with what felt best. You touted your position so highly, I tried it out for 50 -75 games. Your way even felt better, but that was probably because I didn't feel pressured to go get ice points. So the guy who put numbers down got me curious and I did some testing. Rough testing, but it's actually the best data we have that compares each strategy for now. And it shows that pre-loading ammo is a pretty okay thing to do. If better information comes along that says it's not, then I'll concede to the new data.

Make the best decisions you can with the information you have. That's what I'm doing. You can continue doing what you want just because you believe in it. Just because you've played MCH longer and it's your way of doing things doesn't mean it's the best way.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Okay, you're right.

I mean, you're NOT right, but if you simply must be right, you're right.

(P.S. Please never tell people to pre-load in the Feast. That's even worse.)

[Geryth]

(P.S. Please never tell people to pre-load in the Feast. That's even worse.)

Why? The damage is the same, maybe a bit better, if you pre-load bullets into hot shot (not talking about using stun gun). The difference in damage is negligible.

Okay, you're right.

I mean, you're NOT right, but if you simply must be right, you're right.

I might not be! See, that's the thing about being a mortal human being. Mistakes are made. My numbers aren't perfect. If I'm not right, then I'm not and I'm willing to follow the best data. You can say I'm wrong all you want, and believe it with every ounce of your "experience" but until someone pulls data to show otherwise, I'm going to go with the best information we have.

[Praesul]

Don't have to preload ammo if you equip BLM job stone.

[Mofafafa]

Why? The damage is the same, maybe a bit better, if you pre-load bullets into hot shot (not talking about using stun gun). The difference in damage is negligible.

Try to imagine during midfight, when your stun gun is down and you're ready to reapply gauss barrel. Pre-load ammo is always inefficient to get kills, such as in Frontline, you're just delaying yourself 5 GCD to start doing real damage. *ammo provides GCD buff to 1.5s* which makes you having to use 4.5s + 4.6s to starts doing real damage.
Stun Gun save you and your teammates, also helped secure kills.
Also in start of a Feast game, you can apply hotshot to build gauge from chest / enemy easily.

If you believe your theory is to be one of the best in Feast, then we are all welcome for it.

[Geryth]

Try to imagine during midfight, when your stun gun is down and you're ready to reapply gauss barrel.
Stun Gun save you and your teammates, also helped secure kills.

Why? The damage is the same, maybe a bit better, if you pre-load bullets into hot shot (not talking about using stun gun). The difference in damage is negligible.

Also in start of a Feast game, you can apply hotshot to build gauge from chest / enemy easily.

If you believe your theory is to be one of the best in Feast, then we are all welcome for it.

It's not theory, I put up numbers complete with damage logs showing that the damage is the same, if not a bit better, to start off pre-loading ammo. Feel free to do the same, and demonstrate why it's not a good idea to start off pre-loading ammo. Maybe my rotation is bad, and a better rotation can make a clear difference. Exactly what I did is in the logs. If it can be objectively demonstrated that pre-loading ammo is indeed a loss of damage, then that's the strategy I'll employ.