[Request] Remove Deorbit or Change it, Bugs found.

[Korihu]

I love Deorbit. Do not change, do not remove.

You love Deorbit, so why do you not want to have it changed a little bit so it functions better? So that it doesn't get blocked by and use up your ally's concentrate or blocked by your WAR's IR, so that it gets a shield or something to make it more reliable (because server ticks blows with a skill like this)?

I hope that these bugs get solved soon! It using up concentrate is a frustrating experience for everyone involved. I would love for it to get a small shield (like just 10% HP or so?) just so that it is more reliable when pulling people.

[Wintersandman]

You love Deorbit, so why do you not want to have it changed a little bit so it functions better? So that it doesn't get blocked by and use up your ally's concentrate or blocked by your WAR's IR, so that it gets a shield or something to make it more reliable (because server ticks blows with a skill like this)?

I hope that these bugs get solved soon! It using up concentrate is a frustrating experience for everyone involved. I would love for it to get a small shield (like just 10% HP or so?) just so that it is more reliable when pulling people.

I have never experienced an issue where it hasn't worked. It has worked very reliably and consistently for me.

Additionally if you look at the abilities mentioned like Concentrate/Internal Release they both prevent knockback effects which Deorbit essentially is.

[Geryth]

I have never experienced an issue where it hasn't worked. It has worked very reliably and consistently for me.

Additionally if you look at the abilities mentioned like Concentrate/Internal Release they both prevent knockback effects which Deorbit essentially is.

Lag for the server sending the deorbit command, lag for the server acknowledging it on the target, lag on enemies wailing on the deorbit target (pretty sure FFXIV has a "favor the shooter" design of net code meaning until the ENEMY's computer is updated that the target's position has been moved, they can still land attacks) means that I deorbit as many corpses as I do live players. Seriously it can not reliably used as a clutch way to save someone. For instance, say you notice enemy melee start rearing up LB. Deorbit will not save him from the LB unless you cast deorbit before enemy started the LB.

If it was responsive, and could result in some clutch saves, then it wouldn't be so bad. But if your heals are on CD and they are going down fast, then they are going down, and deorbit can't save them. It feels like you have to anticipate what happens before it happens and when you do that, you really end up using it needlessly most of the time or worse, messing up your teammate.

For an ability that feels like it's supposed to be, "Oh snap, they are in danger, let me pull them out of that sticky situation for a quick save", it just doesn't deliver. Again maybe if the net code was snappier it wouldn't feel so bad.

[Wintersandman]

Lag for the server sending the deorbit command, lag for the server acknowledging it on the target, lag on enemies wailing on the deorbit target (pretty sure FFXIV has a "favor the shooter" design of net code meaning until the ENEMY's computer is updated that the target's position has been moved, they can still land attacks) means that I deorbit as many corpses as I do live players. Seriously it can not reliably used as a clutch way to save someone. For instance, say you notice enemy melee start rearing up LB. Deorbit will not save him from the LB unless you cast deorbit before enemy started the LB.

You could argue the same on Benediction and Hallowed Ground.

[Geryth]

You could argue the same on Benediction and Hallowed Ground.

It depends on their net code and how it deals with heals/buffs/damage and how it deals with range. Hallowed Ground might even be "favor the player" meaning any checks are done on their machine before applying the buff (opposed to asking the server first if it's okay to cast Hallowed Ground). That makes abilities like Hallowed Ground more responsive and easier to use. Many games like Overwatch treat different abilities with different rules in the net code specifically for that reason (such as Sombra's teleportation - too many players teleported but then died so now when activated it doesn't check with the server first so if the player who activated the teleport ability clearly saved themselves, then they live). I've never played Paladin so I don't know how responsive Hallowed Ground is, but abilities like that usually don't query out to the server before activating. This means a player delivers what would be a killing blow, but while that killing blow is taking it's precious tick time to reach the server and then to reach you, within that time you activated Hallowed Ground, you saved yourself from what should have been a death. Someone who uses the ability often might be able to say - are there times you trigger the ability (cooldown goes off) but you died anyway? Then it's asking the server first about damage before applying the buff.

With damage or healing I'm pretty sure both sides have to ask the server about the state of the player. There is no concept of one side being "favored". So they are at the mercy of whoever's action gets sent to the server first. I've definitely had times where I hit recuperate and the cooldown activated but I died. It's hard to tell if it's because of server lag or if I just took more damage than recuperate healed me for, but it's happened enough I think it's indicative that I was alive and cast recuperate on my screen, but when I told the server, an enemy had told it that it damaged me first, the server told me I was dead instead of giving me the heal. That's really about as even ground as you can have and while it sucks that it would look like I healed myself, the enemy acted first. It's quite fair except that my cooldown is taken, SE should fix that.

But with player position, it has to be "favor the shooter", because otherwise melee would be right on top of their target on their screen but frustratingly see "not in range". Deorbit is solely about the targets position, and that information takes longer to update on enemy machines than healing or buffs where both sides have to reconcile with the server first (or in some cases as mentioned something like Hallowed Ground might trigger before getting updates from the server). That means the enemy gets the absolute full benefit of every microsecond it takes to update the enemy that the players position was moved from Deorbit.

Again, I don't know their netcode, but I'm quite positive you can't say the same about Benediction or Hallowed Ground. Just based on my anecdotal experience as a Melee player not having issues landing attacks on targets that look to be in range on my screen, and with my deorbit targets taking hits from melee AFTER they've been pulled.

[Cynric]

snip

Many a time in PvE and PvP has hallowed ground activated and I still see someone die. I've seen people get benediction'd but have died already as well. Can't say how similar those problems are. But they do indeed happen very often.

However all position related skills(Geirsko/Nastrond,Tenka Gokken. Shoulder Tackle,Elusive Jump, HS:Soten,Deorbit,etc.) basically any conal,skill shot style, knockback, drawn-in,gap closer, Suffers from being extremely buggy and in certain situations are breakable.

Ie. Knockbacks or untargeted skills not hitting enemies in front of you, hitting enemies no where near you, and hitting enemies late.

Getting 3+ Shoulder Tackles with no CD happening.

Even LoSing behind cover can be very late in some situations.

and then yes of course there's the not being able to hit in melee range on an opponent.

However deorbit getting block by conc is a special kind of wonky.

I think its probably of mix of the server ticks and the skills not being designed properly for environment we actually play in.

I also have a strong feeling that if the skills were playtested , they didn't actually try to break the skills and make them not function properly. Likely didn't have the time to try to think of every situation.

[Geryth]

Many a time in PvE and PvP has hallowed ground activated and I still see someone die. I've seen people get benediction'd but have died already as well. Can't say how similar those problems are. But they do indeed happen very often

I think this just means then that Hallowed Ground then queries the server first before applying the buff, so if killing blow damage was sent to the server before you sent Hallowed Ground, then you're dead. Understandably people are upset when it looks like they hit it in time (even takes their cooldown) but in actuality they weren't quick enough. That's just a problem with any online game, but exacerbated by having a low tick rate. Overwatch was berated for their 20 tick rate for a long time and their overbearing "favor the shooter" rules, but once they wised up and upgraded their hardware to handle a 60 tick rate, most of those issues were way less noticeable.

I don't know what tick rate FFXIV uses but I bet it's not 60. The single best thing they can do to buff deorbit without changing the skill itself is to increase the server's tick rate so it feels snappier and consistent. As I said, my deorbits tend to pull corpses that appear to die mid-pull or after pull pretty often.

[Guesswhat]

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A bit off topic, but It seems to me the game has gotten better at justifying what is actually on your monitor vs what is actually happening. If you compare early PvP with PvP today, it's clearly better. Before I had trouble with melee to actually deal damage at times. Even if I sprinted and locked on to the target I couldn't damage the target, while they seemingly had no problem damaging me. Nowdays I usually never get that problem anymore. I dunno maybe it was my ISP that got bette lol.

Of course, the philosophy should be that whatever is on my monitor is true. Knockback and drawin effects are the most deceptive ones in that regard. For example, fluid aura has the exact same problems as deorbit, in a reverse kinda sense. You try to push a target seemingly standing still off a cliff in shatter, only to find out that the target was actually moving on their side, resulting in you pushing the target the opposite direction of what you wanted. I rarely get it to work as I intended because the position and movement of the target on my monitor, is not the real position and movement of the target.

[Geryth]

A bit off topic, but It seems to me the game has gotten better at justifying what is actually on your monitor vs what is actually happening. If you compare early PvP with PvP today, it's clearly better. Before I had trouble with melee to actually deal damage at times. Even if I sprinted and locked on to the target I couldn't damage the target, while they seemingly had no problem damaging me. Nowdays I usually never get that problem anymore. I dunno maybe it was my ISP that got bette lol.

Of course, the philosophy should be that whatever is on my monitor is true. Knockback and drawin effects are the most deceptive ones in that regard. For example, fluid aura has the exact same problems as deorbit, in a reverse kinda sense. You try to push a target seemingly standing still off a cliff in shatter, only to find out that the target was actually moving on their side, resulting in you pushing the target the opposite direction of what you wanted. I rarely get it to work as I intended because the position and movement of the target on my monitor, is not the real position and movement of the target.

This is exactly why I'm pretty sure that player position information is "favor the shooter" now in their net code. This is how you die to things like Fire IV after you're safely out of line of sight, and things like that. And it's exactly this that makes deorbit awful to use, the design flaws with the skill aside. When it comes to server lag, the enemies are the ones who benefit because it takes so long for the target's position to change on their screens, and they don't have to ask the server where the target is first when activating abilities.

Overwatch solved these kinds of problems in a couple ways:
1) Increase the tick rate! When individual machines are more tightly in tune with the server, timing issues between clients are less apparent (less dying to casting spells after you're safely out of line of sight, less activating abilities or heals on a corpse etc.)
2) Give different rules to different abilities in the net code. Make things like "Hallowed Ground" "favor the player". So if you aren't dead on your machine when you pop it, any damage updates from the server should be nullified.

I will go back to the design of the skill and say, even if they improved their net code and infrastructure, deorbit is just a bad skill that needs to be buffed or re-designed.

[Korihu]

Additionally if you look at the abilities mentioned like Concentrate/Internal Release they both prevent knockback effects which Deorbit essentially is.

Well yes, of course, but obviously people use that skill intending to block *malicious* knockback effects, not supportive ones from your own teammates.