Dear Healers who don't DPS

[Moogly]

To me it looks like you are missing the whole point of what we are trying to drive through, that being us expecting a healer who has absolutely nothing else to do than DPS, to DPS instead of standing there doing NOTHING. as in: Deal some damage when no one needs healing.

And as expected you keep ignoring all the arguments put in front of you by voluntarily or not, putting all non DPSing healer in the same bag.... while I desperatly try to explain to you guys that everybody has its own reason for not DPSing... And that stubborn attitude of not wanting to understand that, well, some people just aren't as good as you are...
We did say and repeat earlier, a healer idling does not mean that he is watching netflix 100%, trying to get carried or get free tomestones...
You're putting them in the same bag as new players unsure of themselves, cautious players... sometimes only healing will take all the concentration from those people.
After I told you so many times, and you're still not willing to accept any of this, how can I not think that you're being selfish in the end...? That the performance you're asking so much for, is in fact so that in the end you're the one who benefits from it ?
Then what about teamwork you'd ask ?
If you ask for performance, savage raid grade performance, make a premade, a static, a PF... I am totally fine and even ask for it.
But keep going full elitism in general, and you'll end up with a community as toxic as wow's.
I've seen that game evolve from quite friendly to horrible, and it was all because everyone tought of themselve as pro gamers when certain addons began to become popular : recount, elitist jerk, gearlevel...
I mean, did you know that the reason why FFXIV doesn't have a parser and most certainly never will, is because of a single (but sounding) harassement incident ? (koike incident)
You guys keep stepping in the grey area with the quoted caustic comments you are making...

Taika : I gave you the post numbers, the quoting thing is kind of a hassle to do... don't worry, all three posts are on page 63. As for the 20-17% thing, you're not the one that started it : #628
As the postings continue, any reader would feel that you're pulling down even more that fictious 20% efficient healer Jolly was making fun of... especially if they only read what you wrote and do not follow the link...

Cynfael : I consider asking for healers to dps systematically already being kind of elitist. I know, dps as healer is super easy, you should always be casting, mana is cheap, etc...
But some people aren't as good or involved... The latter being the hardest thing for you guys to accept I guess... casuals...
But I really tought I made it pretty clear that I am against any kind of elitism when it is out of context, e.g in DF.

[Taika]

Taika : I gave you the post numbers, the quoting thing is kind of a hassle to do... don't worry, all three posts are on page 63.

Page numbers are different for each user depending on their settings. But ok here are the posts:
#624: Your own post, are you saying you're belittling others here or what?

#626: My post:

Do you honestly think, that "this guy says so" is a reasonable argument or grounds for anything? Whatever Yoshi P says has no relevance whatsoever to how the game is actually played - and how the game actually works is what is relevant to this discussion, not how it's talked about. (He of course is in the power of adjusting the game in a way that changes our play style if he so wishes, but that's a separate question - although it may be worth noting that the way he and his team have currently designed the game is exactly the reason why healers are and should be DPSing.)

Erm... these are discussion forums about the healer roles in this game, meant and generally used for discussing optimal play for each role (just like the tank and DPS roles which are full of discussions of optimal rotations, stat weights, use of abilities etc.). I take part in these discussions because I'm interested in how these roles are played optimally (as an ex raid healer and current extreme/dungeon healer, but also in general), just like I follow (and sometimes take part in) discussions about how the DPS and tank jobs are played optimally. You may get various feelings reading these discussions that direct your interpretations of them, but in this case at least your line of thought seems a bit far-fetched. It's more likely people read and take part in this discussions because they want to (know how to) play better.

In which part do I belittle healers in this post (especially healers who aren't refusing to do any DPS)?

#627 Lastelli's post:

Not really. The whole healers dps argument is precisely about the personal aspect because we've had tons of people trying to justify healers not dpsing arguing that "it's not their job, so they don't have to".
People that support healers dps argue that a healer not dpsing is just "new, unconfident, lack of time to play, not skilled..." as you said or just bad/watching netflix during an instance (trust me, this is NOT a joke, it's what a lot of players do and not just healers).
Therein lies the problem. People that defend healers that refuse to dps typically don't want to acknowledge this lack of skill or experience. They're healers, they heal, they don't have to dps, as long as they heal they're good players, that's what they usually say. I think no one here ever suggested that a healer should make dps their #1 priority. But a good healer is not one that uses 1/3 of their toolkit and is active for 50% of an encounter, that's for sure.

In which part do they belittle healers in this post (especially healers who aren't refusing to do any DPS)?

As for the 20-17% thing, you're not the one that started it : #628
As the postings continue, any reader would feel that you're pulling down even more that fictious 20% efficient healer Jolly was making fun of... especially if they only read what you wrote and do not follow the link....[/U]

Nice try. Also, this is Jolly's post you're referring to:

Exactly, it's not fair if the healer gives 20% while everyone else is giving 100%.

People who argue that they don't need to DPS need to take a tour in the Hall of the Novice.

He points out it's not fair for 1 person to be willing to put in only 20% effort if everyone else is willing to give their 100%. Then he points out that even Hall of the Novice, the in-game guide aimed for new players, encourages healers to DPS. In which part is he, in your opinion, making fun of anyone, because I don't see it?

[Moogly]

Come on Taika, do I really have to read between the lines FOR you ?
Remember what I said about written words and spoken words ?

Lastelli talking about people using only 1/3 of the toolkit (LIE)... 50% active (understand he's leeching people for the other 50%)... I even underlined it when I first mentioned it !
Jolly saying it is not fair for one person to do 20% ? And from whose magician's hat did he get that low number ?
And the advice to take a tour in the hall of novice...
If all these aren't belittling what is it ?
Remember what I said about written words and spoken words ?

Or do some of you honestly think that others aren't smart enough to hear the mocking laughs behind those "subtle" elitist jokes/cutting remarks ?

You guys definitely do not like it when people refer to you as "elitists".
Don't refer to pure healers as bad players.
Simple as that.

[Taika]

I guess I'll just have to come to conclusion that you're reading a lot of things into these words that I simply don't see there.

Jolly saying it is not fair for one person to do 20% ? And from whose magician's hat did he get that low number ?

This may be a reference to my "only healing in expert" experiment, in which my activity % as WHM was 16.99 (so even lower than 20%). So it's an actual number from non-DPSing healer play in back-then current expert dungeon (with undergeared tank, and my overheal was still 36%).

Edit:

Lastelli talking about people using only 1/3 of the toolkit (LIE)

On that run, I used a total of 6 different healing abilities, and Divine Seal and Eye for an Eye. WHM at level 60 has 21 abilities, so 26 with cross class skills currently(?). So based on my calculations, that is, in fact, around 1/3 of the job's abilities.

[Lastelli]

Lastelli talking about people using only 1/3 of the toolkit (LIE)...

My bad. I've met scholars using only adlo and physick and white mages using only cure 1/2 and medica 1/2...that's more like 1/5 of their toolkit, yeah, my mistake.

Yes, pure healers are bad players. Be it because they're still learning how healing in this game works or because of a physical handicap or whatever, but there's no denying this simple fact. Just like tanks not using cd and doing 1k dps are bad tanks and dps doing 3k dps in v1s are bad dps.

And let me add that this modern trend to justify any kind of shortcoming is really annoying. I'm not saying that we should point our fingers at "pure healers" and tell them how bad they are. if anything, we should explain them how healing works in ffxiv and help them improve. Also, let me ask one question: how many "pure healers" that do savage raid have you met? Because in my experiene, pure healers are just extremely inexperienced players that cannot even clear v1s if there's not an experienced healer with them that's ready cover their mistakes...while also doing some dps in the meantime.

[Moogly]

Yes, pure healers are bad players.

Well then easy answer : elitists are bad players. Always trying to emulate things that they obviously aren't capable of doing, and not making any effort to correct that since they use advanced gameplay and already considers themselves de-facto good players.

Jolly : And how does healing take all the healer's concentration if there is nothing to heal?
May be you are able to make a split decision in less than a tenth of a second...
Some people will need more time... A GCD is 2.5 second, which can be more than enough for you, but way too quick for others.
Simple example : the brake reaction time varies from people to people : less than 1 second for some and up to 3.5 second for others...
And I saw your list... even mentionned it as some of the offending comments made...

Taika : It's not me that read too much into what you're saying... It's you who isn't careful enough in the way you adress to people. Though it may seem for you like you're not rude or anything, I'm not in front of you, I can't see your facial expressions, etc... All I have are your words... That's why we have emotes in written language...

I think the real problem here is that you guys consider everything from your own POV... not from other people's

[Jollyy5]

Jolly : And how does healing take all the healer's concentration if there is nothing to heal?
May be you are able to make a split decision in less than a tenth of a second...

I'm pretty sure that's a perfect example of reading between the lines/only seeing what you want to see, because the quote continues with: "If they completely freeze for a solid 10 seconds to do nothing?"

Ten seconds, my friend... Ten seconds, not tenth of a second.

And my point of view has little to do with this, let me get my good friend Master of Magic here and see what she thinks:


That's pretty much it in a nutshell, and that's all I'm asking.

[Moogly]

Ten seconds, my friend... Ten seconds, not tenth of a second.

Yes, even ten seconds ! 4 whole GCD !
Easy example : my first run of brayflox : I was equipped with aetherial/vendor gear, haven't yet gotten the full mage set that drops there.
After the first wipe on the last boss, I spent zero time DPSing... because I ran out of mana DPSing on the first try, causing the wipe.
And that meant sometimes spending quite some time, 10 sec or more, doing absolutely nothing : just waiting for my mana to resplenish.
Looking back now, having esuna, SoS mastered, I do feel that I really sucked back then... even tried running a second WHM (Zaza Hya) just to see how I would do in the same conditions, just for the fun.
But after that first clear, I was really feeling satisfied, and really felt I did do my job the best I could... when I now know for sure I could've definitely done better...
But what if someone in the group told me I couldve contributed to DPS to make things go down faster ?
Though I wouldnt, others would've simply quit healing.

The problem with the way you are presenting things, is that you dont seem to really make a difference between begginers and leechers.
Some of you get offended when called elitists : same thing for beginners. Don't accuse newbies of systematically being bad, when they actually give their best.

[Lastelli]

I think the real problem here is that you guys consider everything from your own POV... not from other people's

I didn't ask anything about that, what are you answering? Elitists are totally irrelevant to this discussion.
Also, you do realize that you're basically saying that there are bad players and you simply refuse to define them as such, right?

May be you are able to make a split decision in less than a tenth of a second...
Some people will need more time...

the brake reaction time varies from people to people

So, a healer that needs 5 seconds to react to incoming damage shouldn't be called a bad healer because...? Of course this hypothetical healer will never be able to clear any kind of savage raid, so we shouldn't call it a bad healer for what reason exactly?

[Anselmet]

/snip

As someone who is a casual player and mostly heals content, I can tell you right now what they say has a kernel of truth. Yes, its nice of you to stick up for those who are new and those who are casuals, but seriously that is all it is. Niceness does not mean you are correct, it just means you are nice. The truth of the matter is that FFXIV is the most casual friendly game out on the market. Yoshi-P also has his team creating content that allows people to pick up this game for a few weeks then put it back down. That means that even the toolkits are thought out. Sure, healers no longer can dps like we used to in HW but the way you nitpick the kernel of truth these people are saying shows the lacking in understanding and your willingness to support the underdog who really comprise of a small minority in this game. And I do not mean this as an elitist remark. But as someone who only played healer from ARR until 3.4 I have had plenty of elitists scream at me for not doing a 'good enough job'. In some cases no one was dying they just saw me not doing something optimal and therefor decided to take a giant turd on me. But you know what? When I take what they say with a grain of salt and perhaps think about what they said, I improved in my healing capabilities. Elitist can be assholes, but they know this game a hell a lot better than a new person or a casual.

That being said, I can tell you right now if I were to hop into a dungeon in sb as a scholar or white mage (I have yet to level astrologian but let's be real they're healing king this cycle so I doubt anything changes here) and enter a boss fight and only heal, I will either be spamming heals when the tank is topped off or I would be sitting there doing nothing about 20% of the fight. Maybe not so much outside the boss if there are big pulls but that doesn't change that there are big windows of opportunity where the tank has the right cds and his health doesn't budge where a healer can dps. Does that mean those who are having a bad day should be forced to play with their all, no. But they everyday grind should be set up to help the party clearing the content and that means always pushing buttons and looking for spots where you can help in dmg. As I said before, Yoshi-P takes great care in designing how classes should be played. He would not give so much power to whm dps if he truly did not want them to dps at all. And using 1/3 of their toolkit comment is exaggerated but when it comes to scholar especially it is most definitely not a lie. Scholars are built to dps. Even with our clunkiness of sb we still can dps quite easily even if it is dropping a quick shadow flare and miasma ii. If you ignore dps as a scholar you are eliminating about half of your toolkit. Full stop not even exaggerating I can even sit here and list of the skill names. And maybe they should take a tour of the hall of novice if they have played healer for a really long time and still struggle to heal and dps. This game is not hard, and it most certainly gives healers the time to learn to dps as they heal and level.

And quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of people treating elitists as if they are all terrible people. I've learned more from being around an elitist for a few months than I ever did in three or four years I played this game. An ass hole is not automatically an elitist. I have seen some pretty stupid ass holes on this game trying to tell me how to heal on here and they are a hundred percent wrong.