Two Months In: Will You Reconsider GL IV?

[Exiled_Tonberry]

This whole riddle of fire-debacle is basically the Stormblood-repetition of the Bard+CastingTime debacle back then in Heavensward, where the jobdesigner of a certain job( this time, it's monk) truly seems to be out of touch with what people actually like about the job.

Better luck in the next expansion, guys.

Unfortunately, you're probably right. They're out of touch with what they want with Monk. The job not changing at all since ARR makes that pretty evident.
We get OGCDs. We get more ways to manage Greased Lightning, that's all.

[enthauptet]

These sort of DoTs were GCDs that added no depth to the class, and would benefit more from having it's overall potency being baked into current skills or new skills.

Only thing that truly holds water is RoF being counter intuitive to the deicing of the job by reducing attack speed (similar to how WM/GB added cast times, except RoF is only present for a set time rather than being active throguhout). Though my previous issues still stand with GL4; making it a passive that allows for a 4th stacking just makes monk even more punishing to play since their DPS will be balanced around that, and regardless of how it's implemented (as a temporary buff or being a passive), having GCDs lower than 2 seconds is really not much of a benefit for players that have to deal with latency, specifically east coasters that can't properly weave oGCDs with RDM 1-2-3, MCH rapid fire or even mudras.

The dots didn't add much but made it less annoying clipping stuff like if you have to leave boss now you always will clip. I think riddle still makes the job harder since it is easier to screw up opener.

I still think it is funny how Hamon's solution to the monk issues in the SB story are to punch faster, and here we get a skill to punch slower.

[Ayirez]

After reading through the whole thread I saw quite a few people saying how hard it would be to keep GLIV or that GL isn't a great mechanic to begin with and it should be changed/removed/etc. Do you lot actually enjoy Monk then? GL is the whole bread and butter and identity of Monk in FFXIV, yes we're built around keeping it up and maintaining it, because we ARE it. I find GL to be fun, the concept of starting slow and ramping up, up, up until you're fully warmed up and ready to explode, that's awesome when in other media and part of the reason I play Monk in the first place, because that's what we stand for, honing the body to be stronger, faster, more durable. GLIV is another step toward that power up, toward become the master of our own bodies.

SE can make GLIV easier to keep up, they can make it work. They just have to wake up to what they want Monk to be, whether that's what we as a community want or what they want, they need to commit on an identity and have our whole move set focus on it. As it is now Monk is just in a really bad spot, one that is static and less involved than it used to be, but I'll remain a Monk main till the 2nd coming of Bahamut because of its focus on speed and strength in unity and the mastery of ourselves and not some weapon.

[SpeckledBurd]

After reading through the whole thread I saw quite a few people saying how hard it would be to keep GLIV or that GL isn't a great mechanic to begin with and it should be changed/removed/etc. Do you lot actually enjoy Monk then? GL is the whole bread and butter and identity of Monk in FFXIV, yes we're built around keeping it up and maintaining it, because we ARE it. I find GL to be fun, the concept of starting slow and ramping up, up, up until you're fully warmed up and ready to explode, that's awesome when in other media and part of the reason I play Monk in the first place, because that's what we stand for, honing the body to be stronger, faster, more durable. GLIV is another step toward that power up, toward become the master of our own bodies.


SE can make GLIV easier to keep up, they can make it work. They just have to wake up to what they want Monk to be, whether that's what we as a community want or what they want, they need to commit on an identity and have our whole move set focus on it. As it is now Monk is just in a really bad spot, one that is static and less involved than it used to be, but I'll remain a Monk main till the 2nd coming of Bahamut because of its focus on speed and strength in unity and the mastery of ourselves and not some weapon.

I don't have any issue with Greased Lightning. I like going fast and hitting moderately hard. The problem with Greased Lightning, in my opinion at least, is that the devs have this seemingly overwhelming tendency to give us "Quality of Life" skills built around maintaining it or mitigating the effect of its loss, and getting them two expansions in a row is kind of frustrating when we have to watch other jobs get actual new skills they regularly use. It's doubly frustrating when some jobs such as Dragoon and Black Mage had quality of life for maintaining their buffs built into their pre-existing kits (to varying degrees of success, as I understand it Dragoon extending its BotD with the buff can cause some issues with its rotation).

I also don't think Greased Lightning IV should be persistent, I think it should be a buff we work towards by refreshing GL3 for X amount of time, similar to how Black Mage earns Polyglot in order to Execute Foul.

[Ayirez]

After reading all the posts in this thread and thinking about Monk all day and night as it is my beloved identity, I realized I needed an additional revision for things I hadn't considered before. Hopefully this can combine the best of all worlds and address issues you all thought of that I didn't.

Core Monk Mechanics

• Greased Lightning: Add an additional stack for a total of four. Reduction to damage increase per stack (5%). The end result would be 20% damage increase and a 20% Attack Speed increase.
• Chakra: Gauge increased from five to seven. (We did unlock 7 of them after all.) Chance for chakra gain also given to a Direct Hit, and upon a Direct Critical Hit there is a 100% chance to gain a chakra.
• Fists of Fire: Changes to a constant 5% increase of Critical Hit Rate.
• Fists of Wind: Changes to a constant 2% increase to both Direct Hit and Skill Speed.
• Fists of Earth: Changes to a constant 5% increase of Determination and Damage Reduction, also allowing for Deep Meditation's effect to raise to a 60% chance.

The Riddles

• Riddle of Fire: Changes to Fists of Fire and gives a 20% damage buff for 20s. 90s cooldown.
• Riddle of Wind: Changes to Fists of Wind and adds 20 potency to every GCD and AA for 20s. 90s cooldown.
• Riddle of Earth: Changes to Fists of Earth and allows for all critical hits and direct hits to have a 100% chance to give chakra for 20s. 90s cooldown.

Ability Reworks

• Purification: Costs three chakra and grants a stack or refreshes Greased Lightning. No cooldown. 1.25s animation.
• The Forbidden Chakra: Costs five chakra. potency reduced to 220. 5s cooldown.
• Tornado Kick: Costs seven chakra. potency reduced to 280. 15s cooldown.
• Perfect Balance: Cooldown reduced from 180s to 120s.
• Tackle Mastery: Removed.
• Steel Peak: Potency reduced to 50, cooldown reduced from 40s to 30s.
• Peak Mastery: Grants Steel Peak additional effects based upon which Fist stance the player is in. Fists of Fire grants a 30s damage increase (5% ?), Fists of Wind grants a one minute DoT, Fists of Earth grants three chakra.
• Brotherhood: Damage buff reduced to 3% and applies to mages and healers. Chakra gain effects now also apply to mages and healers.
• Internal Release: Reduced from 30% to 20%.
• One Ilm Punch - Potency reduced to 80. Cost reduced to 110TP. Stun removed. Delivers damage in a narrow line before the player.
• Arm of the Destroyer - Potency increased to 60. Cost reduced to 100TP. Silence removed.

This is, as far as I'm concerned, the best case scenario for Monk that gives its identity back and allow for a three fist form + riddle system to work optimally. While at first it may appear a large debuff due to the Greased Lightning damage decrease, due to the new capabilities and methods to gain chakra it would allow for TFC and Tornado Kick to be used more often which potentially would make up for it. One reason to lower GL's damage buff even further is to make losing GL stacks less punishing to lagging or new (or bad) Players.

With Purification changed in that way Monks could start a battle at 2/4 stacks of GL and use Perfect Balance to get the other two quickly. Optionally they could just use PB to get all 4 stacks and use Tornado Kick in their opener. If a Monk did drop stacks due to mechanics or death they could change to Fists of Wind for the speed buff and get it back faster that way. It's also not like once you use PB at the beginning of the fight it stops existing, PB can be used every three minutes currently and is currently the only way to regain stacks yet most Monk's aren't complaining. Reducing it to two minutes allows you an even easier time to regain stacks, so adding a fourth stack of GL won't cause Monk as a class to break and become useless (not that it would have anyway).

Peak Mastery would allow Steel Peak to be used during each riddle, which is what SE wanted from the riddle system with shoulder tackle yet didn't deliver it in any meaningful way at all. Brotherhood is a quality of life issue that they may even address eventually during 4.X, and One Ilm Punch becoming an AoE would finally give Monk's a true AoE combo.

In my humble opinion, this would make Monk probably need a nerf in potency values and such, but it would make FAR more sense than what we have, and more importantly it would be VASTLY more fun to play. Balancing it is SE's job in any case, the system is what matters in this conversation and I believe that this system gives Monk back its identity from ARR and expands on it. Well, let's hope SE reads the forums and takes inspiration from the community, because whether or not they create such a massive overhaul like this or simply take bits and pieces from what we've all said, at least then Monk would have some improvements rather than being mutated into a slower and less focused class.

[Ayirez]

...

Which is fair, whether or not GLIV should become the fourth stack of GL or simply a buff for a small amount of time is a matter of opinion really, lots of us are for, lots of us are against, and SE has their hands in the air not knowing what to do (with GLIV or the entire class itself).

[Bariaus]

The dots didn't add much but made it less annoying clipping stuff like if you have to leave boss now you always will clip.

The dots made the difference between good melee dps and high perf melee dps. Talking about parse numbers at least. Keeping that stuff up was kind of a bore but it sure made the difference. When SE said they were making this game more friendly on the gap between good and outstanding players, was removing this, adding the gauge visual guide, and lastly the role skills.

Also, @Ayirez: Core mechanics is the BS/TS/Demo - DK/True/SP rotation variants, not the fists/riddles. Didn't read them all but I think it's a good point to consider that the 30% dmg for current RoF could be "split" into all of the others skills we aren't currently using and this way we can be a bit more creative.

[RiceisNice]

I also don't think Greased Lightning IV should be persistent, I think it should be a buff we work towards by refreshing GL3 for X amount of time, similar to how Black Mage earns Polyglot in order to Execute Foul.

Unlike Enochian with polyglot though, maintaining GL3 can be out of the question when it comes to certain boss designs or mechanics. It's what we've seen with Life of the Dragoon and Bahamut, and SMN does take a hefty nose dive to their dps if anything were to happen to that process. It's counter-intutitive to their design philosophy for reworking the jobs (closing the gap in floor:celling and lowering the skill floor).

Also, @Ayirez: Core mechanics is the BS/TS/Demo - DK/True/SP rotation variants, not the fists/riddles. Didn't read them all but I think it's a good point to consider that the 30% dmg for current RoF could be "split" into all of the others skills we aren't currently using and this way we can be a bit more creative.

The damage should just be baked into existing skills and keep the cooldowns to a minimum. I (and most likely other people) rather not go back to the time we have three dedicated buttons just to pop cooldowns.

Brotherhood is a quality of life issue that they may even address eventually during 4.X, and One Ilm Punch becoming an AoE would finally give Monk's a true AoE combo.

This is not a QoL change that makes MNK easier to play, this is a direct buff to MNK's performance.

[Jollyy5]

I don't think I could handle Monk going much faster, I'm playing at 180-200ms latency, which makes weaving, let alone double weaving, a bit tricky at times. I want to believe I'm not the only one.

[Xeinon]

...

While i like a lot of your ideas, especially the chakra system, your fist stances and steel peak mastery would only add an Illusion of having an Option, much like the current fist stances. One would simple be the most overall dps increase so everyone would use them.

I think the only solution to make the fist stances feel interesting and interactive would be something like making them not last indefinitely but 20seconds each with a 60secs cooldown, that was youre constantly switching betreten them.
To make it more meaningful which stance rotation you go you could give more ogcds effects based on current stance, which would incentivise you being in a certain form at a certain time (might have to play around with some cds then)

Writing from my phone so apologies for gramma, just brainstorming some ideas