Why cant we play Garlean empire?

[Alleo]

It was stated in the lore book that some of the locations close to the garlean homeland were annexed through diplomacy as well. They just didn't give specific names, if i remember correctly they referred to it as a 'carrot on a stick' offering magitek in exchange for joining them.

Yes on page 177 they write that "..one town named itself the center, and the others were brought into the fold through negotiation and force." So they are capable of diplomacy but even in their starting points they also used force to unite. But at least at that point it was about survival. After getting those small towns they started to send in spies "to incite conflict betwixt the surrounding nations".

Later on Galvus used warmachina to "avenge every wrong ever done to them", and "Garleans invaded the countries of northern Ilsabard and annexed their lands. To expand its small army, Garlemald recruited the subjugated people, promising to better their lives with magitek technology in exchange for service. This cunning carrot-and-stick strategy made the republic greater and more powerful with every victory.."

"Having unified the continent through force for the first time in history, Galvus proclaimed himself Emperor, and thus created the Garlean Empire." After that the lorebook states that one continent was not enough for him and he look towards Othard. So yes they used some diplomacy with some of the smaller towns next to them but the rest of the continent was conquered with force and the carrot on the stick was still only gifted to those that were forcefully integrated into the soon-to-be empire. Its written like they conquered it first because of vengeance but after that, it was not enough for the Emperor so he started his world conquering. There is also no mentioning of another reason, other than wanting more land.

Just wanted to post all the important quotes because this makes it easier to know the whole story.

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I also agree that calling someone a troll is not very nice, but I wish both sides would stop with their verbal insults. Also there is nothing wrong with trying to look at it from a different perspective but they should still be within the games own facts. It is just wrong to say that the Garlean soldiers were not the aggressors in Kugane and that they are peaceful there, even though the game has shown or told us about at least two happenings where they set up a trap to kill people. Gosetsu might be known but they did not know who we are and there is a strict rule about attacking anyone in the city. Also like always most of us dont always just see it just in black or white, which lots of our posts already showed.

[Mysterysword]

I acknowledge that there are real-world examples of intense propaganda meaning the aforementioned loudspeakers everywhere. It's essentially brute-forcing the issue. We've all learned far more effective ways since then, and that is what I want to see in-game, should it occur.

On the other hand, brute force is largely the language of the Garleans. They can be subtle when needed, but would they feel the need to be subtle about their propaganda? Over-the-top indoctrination can also fit into the story, if its effects are also accurately portrayed.

For example, show us some citizens who, in response to this intrusive propaganda, actively try to resist and reject it out of hand. Or people who weren't convinced by it at all, but keep their opinions quiet and heads down to avoid being imprisoned as a traitor. Propaganda, whether overt or covert, still works as a means of control for a reason. Even today, we still have an example of a totalitarian dictatorship run by such means. Accounts told by people from that dictatorship indicate that it doesn't work fully on the citizens either.

And going back to the game, the failure of this brute-force may be exactly what gives us defectors from the regime, in the end, just as in real-life.

[Theodric]

The Garleans are described in the lore book as valuing efficiency, thus if brute force proves to be a repeated failure then it doesn't do them justice to have them stubbornly embrace it...unless the intention is to make them deliberately stupid to justify more territory being liberated and practically handed over to the Eorzean Alliance and its allies on a silver platter with minimal losses. Something which doesn't necessarily make for a satisfying story. It'd be much more refreshing to see plot points from FFXII embraced where we don't see the dull 'defector' trope embraced and instead see someone from Garlemald show up who is primarily loyal to their own people and homeland but sees the value of peace. Someone inspired by Larsa who doesn't lead to the Garlean Empire being dismantled or rendered overly vulnerable whilst also appeasing those who want to take pride in everything it has endured and accomplished.

[VargasVermillion]

The Garleans are described in the lore book as valuing efficiency, thus if brute force proves to be a repeated failure then it doesn't do them justice to have them stubbornly embrace it...unless the intention is to make them deliberately stupid to justify more territory being liberated and practically handed over to the Eorzean Alliance and its allies on a silver platter with minimal losses. Something which doesn't necessarily make for a satisfying story.

Well i don't mean to burst your hopes but it seems more likely they'll just get proven incompetent even if the lore implies otherwise. It's likely we only have 2 more expacs until the garleans are dealt with so I won't be expecting too much based on stormblood. We'll get more diplomacy for sure, it's already known that there are garleans who are opposed to the violence which is why there was a war of succession in the first place, but in combat? they'll probably just be curb-stomped as always throwing the 'efficiency' out the window.

[NoblePigeon]

Dictatorships have a tendency of hunkering down and forcing its people to fight to the last breath unless they're actually toppled, if things get desperate enough. I see no reason why the current regime would abandon its warhawk, expansionist ways. If that Larsa character analog is going to be any sympathetic they'd need to acknowledge that the core leadership is rotten and either needs to actually use diplomacy, or get replaced.

Leave Othard, leave Aldenard. Or at least release lands that clearly do not want Imperial rule. And drop this arrogant attitude that only they can save the world from primals via genocide and enslavement, and the "me vs. them" attitude. Then we'll get to talking. Otherwise, there's not going to be an understanding reached with them. Ever. And since Varis is dead set on conquering Eorzea, and Eorzea is dead set on never surrendering to the Empire, there's going to be perpetual conflict until one of them's destroyed.

[Cilia]

I think it's important to remember Garlemald's "might makes right" policy. This leaves other territories with no recourse but violence if it wishes to prove its independence is right. For conquered territories seeking independence, this means violent rebellion against Imperial rule. It was right of the Empire to take their lands since it was mightier; conversely, proving greater might is the only way to establish a right to independence.

Until "might makes right" no longer works for the Empire, violence is the only option for resisting it. We need a drastic change in leadership for that to happen. I am not opposed to a Larsa figure - far from it, I'd very much like one - but they will have their work cut out for them, assuming such a figure appears.

[Jyera]

Some of Garlemald's colonialist fervor is fueled by a victimhood narrative born of real past suffering that they use as justification. It's fine to point out this part of their cultural canon, but doing so without acknowledging how they have weaponised it is fallacious.

Seconding some thoughts I've seen here on imperial civilians. I want to know what they know. What do "ordinary" Garleans think? We know part of their military are censors--the 'goe' infix is used for both spies and censors. The disaster at Bozja Citadel was not well known of, for example, and was only known about at all because its sheer scale was too great for censors to fully suppress.

One of my hopes for a Garlemald trip is that we'll get an unflinching look at what their 'normies'' views are. It's not exactly unusual that civilians whose leadership are geared at violent suppression either don't know what's up and aren't interested in finding out, or do know what's going on and don't speak out.

[YianKutku]

On the other hand, brute force is largely the language of the Garleans. They can be subtle when needed, but would they feel the need to be subtle about their propaganda? Over-the-top indoctrination can also fit into the story, if its effects are also accurately portrayed.

My objection with brute-force is largely because however else the Garlean Empire may be portrayed, the biggest sin would be if they were shown to be incompetent. Even worse, that incompetence stems not from any deep exploration of the themes and plotlines, but simply because of lazy set-dressing.

In other words, not a criticism of Garlemald, but a potential criticism of the writers. (I trust I don't have to put "potential" in bold italics.)

The Empire has already used propaganda techniques, back before ARR (at least according to accounts of the plotline I've read here). They are not complete newbies to the concept.

[Raqrie_Tohka]

To answer the direct question: We'll never get to play as a Garlean starting race; the MSQ simply won't be able to accommodate it.

That said, if you think of the Garlean empire as a "Corporate Company", not unlike a surface interpretation of the meaning of "Grand Company", with actual political power, as is one of the stages of judging real-life industry progress (and their incorporation, and importance within civilization itself), then one may be able to understand the policies of the Garlean Empire. Potential and ability is valued above all, to make "profit" for the company and "carry out" its orders. "Clean" operation is paramount; there is no place for personal feelings, bonds, and superstition to bemuddle corporate efficiency. And there are no true friends, there are only competitors, assets, and profit. Even within the company itself. Ruthless, but far from overwhelmingly complex and incomprehensible.

The results of such an inhuman corporate mindset, the latest example being how growing up in such an environment pretty much makes you a monster, would seem frightening, and further lead us to think of Garleans as "evil, inhumane, cold, etc." but for the people in that corporation structure who are already devoid of most of the "warm, fuzzy, soft" kind emotions, it is perhaps all quite logical and and nothing is truly "right or wrong" per se anymore, and thus they don't even worry in the way we do when we see their thoughts and actions. From that perspective, even the claim of us being the true "savages" is understandable, as was brought up by other posts.

This is falling into the "The Empire did nothing wrong" argument for Star Wars. Thus I really don't think it is valid to draw direct conclusions from fiction as if we were examining real life history. However, we may be supported to draw other types of "conclusions" ... the kind which fiction and art excels at. Is that your motivation to try playing as Garlean, to see it from their perspective, learn what you could not otherwise, and thus be a better person from doing so? If that is so, then luckily there are other ways to do it besides actually "playing as Garlean Empire". As for how we could accomplish that ... well that's the new question now.

[Alleo]

The Garleans are described in the lore book as valuing efficiency, thus if brute force proves to be a repeated failure then it doesn't do them justice to have them stubbornly embrace it...unless the intention is to make them deliberately stupid to justify more territory being liberated and practically handed over to the Eorzean Alliance and its allies on a silver platter with minimal losses. Something which doesn't necessarily make for a satisfying story.

I dont agree a lot with you on Garlemald but I agree here. I really hope that we will not just win because the empire makes stupid decisions..its already hard to accept stupid decisions from our own character..but such an empire should not be making newbie mistakes or something..I really want them to either be our true enemy through the whole story but remain to be a serious threat at the same time, or somehow see them changed so that they would fight with us against an even bigger threat..but I dont want just mustache twirling evil guys that will be their own grave..anyway until Zenos, no Garlean truly felt dangerous to our WoL and the treat itself through them does not feel strong too so I remain skeptic how SE will treat them.

(I would accept their downfall through their war mongering actions. It happened a lot in real life too where big empires just fell because they were simply too big and because they had an war on the inside. Like people are not happy with the leader and try to take him down but the following leaders will ruin the land by not finding a good compromise..or it will bite them in the back that they treat some of their conquered countries really bad)