Is Fordola the monster Lyse says she is?

[SendohJin]

To oppose Zenos would likely mean their deaths - and neither of them have any obligation to sacrifice their lives. Heck, the protagonists themselves made numerous quips about how that isn't something to aspire to.

"likely mean their deaths" not "certain". the opposite of not aspiring to die isn't to kill other people, that's taken way out of context here. people shouldn't aspire to be poor isn't a blank check to steal.

[Theodric]

"likely mean their deaths" not "certain". the opposite of not aspiring to die isn't to kill other people, that's taken way out of context here. people shouldn't aspire to be poor isn't a blank check to steal.

Zenos is repeatedly shown to murder his own people on a whim. They really had no reason to assume he wouldn't kill them for failing to obey his orders - especially in Fordola's case as it was not the first time she had proven to disappoint Zenos' expectations.

[Alleo]

But it's quite another when the soldier's life is under threat, in which case, it can be argued that self-preservation takes precedence.

It ought to be clear, from the quotes above, that Fordola was under no illusion that disobeying Zeno's orders would be fatal — the centurion himself virtually confirmed her assumption.

That being the case, should Fordola be held personally responsible for giving the order? The parallel with the situation in Isari is actually quite uncanny and, now that it's been brought to my attention, I wonder if that was the intention. If so, my kudos again to the writers.

If we don't blame the villager for shooting a fellow villager, under duress, then to what extent can we blame Fordola for the same action, committed under a similar context of duress?

It is really difficult because they are so similar but I would dare to say that the villager did pay it with his life in the end. For me its kinda like the question if someone is a murderer or killed someone in self-defense. Like someone is standing there with you, pointing the gun at you and your family and in an act to save them you kill the attacker. In our time this is counted as self-defense (as far as I know) but if one is truly accurate that person still killed another.

So how would I differ between them? Well I would say that intent and motivation is a big part. The person in the village killed his comrade/neighbor because otherwise everyone else would be killed and the danger was real and imminent. So he did not even act out of pure selfishness but also to protect the others. When he understood that Yotsuyu never planned to spare the others, he tried to take her out. With Fordola, we only hear her ordering the shooting. We never hear what Zenos truly said as a threat. Would failure mean death for only her or for all of them? If its the latter, then yes even if its not imminent I would say that its comparable to the villager. But if its not and the only one that would have suffered is her then it would be different imo. Because she would see the survival of herself higher than that of the others. Thats like saying: "Well I was the only one that could control the bomb and they wanted to kill me if I dont do it so I used it and killed x people to save myself".

I do believe that Lyse started to call her that because she was (rightfully) shocked that she did not just kill the people of the rebellion (which was still fine since they were on different sides of the war and at least she did not torture them) but her own underlings too. (So she did become the kin-slayer at the end) She might not have known that this would have meant death for her but its still a quite shocking action and on top of that Lyse lost a good person and lots of comrades in that attack too. With such raw emotions, its not really surprising that she called her monster. (And maybe it was also to anger Fordola herself or make her feel bad)

If she is monster in our eyes will probably differ from everyones view. All her actions and her will to go really far for her task makes her near a monster for me. I am kinda interested if she will further turn into that (and maybe as a side effect from the experiments even in body) or if she will see her errors and try to change. Nonetheless she should land in prison.

Zenos is repeatedly shown to murder his own people on a whim. They really had no reason to assume he wouldn't kill them for failing to obey his orders - especially in Fordola's case as it was not the first time she had proven to disappoint Zenos' expectations.

I kinda agree that he would have probably killed her but at the same time I have no idea what goes on in his head so maybe he would have seen more reason to let her live (he did it before). At the same time we always saw him killing the leader of the army that failed so there would be a big chance that only she would have been killed. So its kinda a situation where you put the live of your own against those of others. We know thanks to Lyse that her group was ready to stop fighting, so they would have been traitors anyway and on the kill list of the empire but at least they would have gotten the choice of trying to truly help their people. Still Fordola also did not know that.

(As a what if that I only write down because I find it interesting and not to use it as an argument: What if the alliance had lost and Garlean soldiers would have gotten to know about her deeds..the one pushing the button only did it on her forceful command and with arguing so I could see that even the other soldiers would paint her as bad. Why? Well they never liked her and her underlings. This would be the perfect way to finally put her out of the ranks or even let her be killed. I mean she probably did not only kill her own men but other Garlean soldiers too..and Zenos probably would not care what will happen to her after he is done playing with her. So it even could be that she would be deathly punished for that and not seen as some kind of savior/hero. But thats just a what if that just came to my mind)

[Draginhikari]

Zenos behavior of killing those that fail him can be kind of hard to follow. On the one hand we saw him cut down multiple people that worked for him but when Grynewaht failed rather then killing him he killed Grynewaht's superior instead seeming with the reason that Grynewaht was less of a coward then the superior who had done nothing. Shipping Grynewaht off to Doma instead. It seems like take a certain liking to either a particular level of strength or a certain level of anger and uses it to drive his point forward. He probably didn't need to push the order on Fordola too hard at that point, she was already humiliated, angry, and frustrated. By the time we fought her near the end she seemed to have nothing left to lose then to do whatever it took to win even allow for potentially unethical experiments to be performed on her or kill those she should by.

Is Fordola a monster? It is kind of hard to say when people are driven to desperation they will do just about anything. One thing is for sure Zenos was really, really good at pushing the right buttons to get what he wanted.

[Quor]

Fordola had a choice. It wasn't even a Hobson's choice. She could have chosen to use her newfound power to strike at the heart of Castrum Abania itself, handing the Resistance an even easier victory. She could have taken a principled stand and attempted to rally the imperials around her against Zenos and his obvious madness. She could have (easily) slaughtered them with her newfound Resonance, then sabotage the Castrum herself before turning coat on the Empire in lieu of joining the resistance.

But she didn't. Because she didn't *want* to. I brought this up earlier; she had more skin in the game than she let on with all her talk of "her people." Best case scenario you can argue is that it didn't even occur to her that the Empire could lose. This doesn't hold much water however, as despite the mounting evidence that the Empire could be beaten, Fordola still remained loyal to her occupiers. After all, Doma had since been liberated, with a complete rout/annihilation of Imperial forces, while the EA and Resistance had taken control over large swaths of Gyr Abania.

This leads me to believe her talk about doing what she did for "her people" was as much a lie to herself as it was to us. Fordola told herself this comforting lie so she could actually find some semblance of peace in the sea of horrors she was forced into each day. She told herself this lie for so long that she started to believe it herself. At first it was probably (mostly) out of survival, with a few nice carrots tossed on to soften the blow. But eventually it was a reflection of the madness Zenos himself had poured into her. She is most certainly a tragic figure, and definitely not past the point of redemption, but she is damaged beyond belief on a spiritual level. Most of that damage was externally inflicted, but some of it? Some of it came from herself, in the way she willingly engaged in atrocities with the thinnest of justifications. So again, in that moment, with the weight of all she had seen Fordola do crashing down upon her, Lyse unleashed with a raw, ugly, brutal truth. She called out Fordola for the monster she had become.

[Cilia]

---

This is what it comes down to. There are many junctures at which Fordola could have chosen to disobey Zenos' orders and many ways in which she could have gone about it. Had she considered the order to fire on Specula Imperatoris unlawful she would have disobeyed it; instead she acted as a loyal hound, carrying out her master's orders to the letter despite personal misgivings. The Imperial officer in the Castrum balking at the order suggests it's not exactly the sort of order issued every day, and only when similarly coerced by Fordola does he issue it. (Even then he asks Fordola to confirm the target.)

Note that I'm not saying Fordola is beyond redemption; far from it, her hesitation suggests she's not completely gone. I do hope she ends up redeeming herself, but only Fordola can do that.

[Daralii]

This is what it comes down to. There are many junctures at which Fordola could have chosen to disobey Zenos' orders and many ways in which she could have gone about it. Had she considered the order to fire on Specula Imperatoris unlawful she would have disobeyed it; instead she acted as a loyal hound, carrying out her master's orders to the letter despite personal misgivings. The Imperial officer in the Castrum balking at the order suggests it's not exactly the sort of order issued every day, and only when similarly coerced by Fordola does he issue it. (Even then he asks Fordola to confirm the target.)

Note that I'm not saying Fordola is beyond redemption; far from it, her hesitation suggests she's not completely gone. I do hope she ends up redeeming herself, but only Fordola can do that.

It's probably gonna hinge on the Empire's possible reprisal and what her sentencing is like. There's also the possibility that her Resonance will end up affecting her somehow and require us to put her down.

[YianKutku]

Because she didn't *want* to. I brought this up earlier; she had more skin in the game than she let on with all her talk of "her people."

I think it's telling that after the defeat at Castellum Velodyna, when Zenos asked Fordola what she really wanted, her answer was "power". Enough power to defeat those who stood in her way.

Not the integration of Ala Mhigo into the Empire, or respect for Ala Mhigans or herself from other Imperials. Just power.

Power might have been used to gain those other things, but at that point, I think Fordola has mistaken the process for the goal. Instead of power for a purpose, it's just power for its own sake.

Which happens to be what Zenos approves of, which is probably why he sends her to the Resonant augmentation.

[Dameron]

i don't think Fordola is as much of an irredeemable monster as Yoyotsu is, especially considering the Garlean Empire basically molded her throughout her entire life into what she is today. However, it cannot be denied that she has crossed the line by firing on her own troops in Specula Imperatoris. Sure it's true that she was ordered to do so by Zenos directly, but she still decided to pull the trigger instead of disobeying such a clearly amoral order. Even Gaius van Baelsar would have most likely disobeyed it despite his loyalty.

Honestly, I could see a redemption arc for Fordola working. After all, Zenos is gone, Ala Mhigo has been freed, and the illusion of the Empire's might and authority that she grew up in has been shattered. But it would take a long time and a lot of hard work for her to go on the right path, and odds are that Ala Mhigo won't forget her crimes.

Oh, but do let us kill Yoyotsu please. She is a monster who should have died in Doma.

[YianKutku]

Even Gaius van Baelsar would have most likely disobeyed it despite his loyalty.

Gaius already disobeyed an order at the start of ARR, that order being "don't attack Eorzea until the Emperor says so". This is why the XIVth was considered to have gone rogue, and marked for death if they tried to retreat back to Garlemald.

I don't mention 1.0, largely because I have no idea how blatant the disobedience was when Gaius did all his machinations against Nael.

So I really doubt Gaius would have disobeyed an order as was given to Fordola due to moral stances. He would probably have disobeyed it because he did not see it as practical, and he had some other plans of his own. Same result, different motivations.

I see Fordola having a redemption arc as more likely than Yotsuyu having one, largely because Fordola arrived at her conclusions and actions through some sort of reasoning, even if the premises and processes are (provably) mistaken. In other words, she can theoretically be convinced.

Yotsuyu had no such reasoning. She just wanted to hurt Domans because she hates them, and she hates them because she was mistreated horribly when she was younger. It's a conclusion based off emotion, not reason. I can't think of any way to create a redemption arc from that which doesn't feel cheap.