Why cant we play Garlean empire?

[CaesarCV]

To be fair, the Garleans have goals far beyond merely defeating the primals. In fact, it can be very much argued that world domination, not defeating the primals, is their primary goal. They are largely interested in defeating the "Eikons' since they see such beings as one of the very few in the world who can resist their warmachina and the like. Given that several of their major defeats (Silvertear Lake, Baelsar's Wall) are directly related to primals makes this attitude somewhat logical, although their methods are truly abhorrent. That being said, they are massive hypocrites in their quest to defeat the primals, and their policies have done far more harm than good.

Gaius mocks the Eorzeans for relying on blind faith in higher powers and unleashing beasts they can't control. However, both he and the Empire go on to do that very same thing, putting blind faith in Allagan creations they don't understand and unleashing powers far beyond their power. They released Ultima Weapon, which would have done major damage to the world had the WoL not stopped it. They also attempted to capture the power of the Warring Triad, and it was shown that had they tried it would have been disastrous. And they also were the ones to unleash Bahamut on the world and cause a calamity. And their cruel treatment of the Ananta was the reason they summoned Lakshmi. And it's heavily pointed out that their expansionist, genocidal policies are what is causing the Beastmen to keep summoning their primals in the first place. (Especially the sylphs who have trouble differentiating between the 'iron men' and their peaceful Gridanian counterparts). Their methods for solving the primal threat are (currently anyway) inimical to both Eorzean life and sovereignty, and unfortunately with Varis in command that doesn't look to be changing anytime soon. Additionally, all attempts at diplomacy with the Empire have failed. They are effectively in a state of Total War with Eorzea, and have no current interest in any diplomatic solutions.

As for the whole 'some places have prospered' thing, I do have to say that maybe we shouldn't trust a couple of lines over a whole expansion worth of evidence. Even regions that have prospered will probably face several major issues due to the Garlean Ethos, such as the mass conscription, environmental damage, and other problems created by their pursuit of total war policies. Not to mention that non-Garleans explicitly are limited in how they could rise, with Rhitayn explicitly mentioned as being of the highest rank a non-pure blooded Garlean can achieve. They uphold a draconian caste system, and although people can rise through the ranks, it's explicitly much, much harder for those not of pure Garlean blood. As for not making peace in Stormblood, Ilberd's actions meant that the Garlean invasion would come again right quick. Would it be better to take the chance to free a horribly oppressed people? Or just wait for Garlemald to regroup and invade?

[Kusanagi7]

@Theo you say garlemald have been keeping the peace in kugane dunno about anyone else but we got led into an ambush in kugane and were attacked by garlean soldiers so im not buying them keeping the peace there.

[Cilia]

I'll write up something lengthier when I get home, but in the meantime, consider this:

No matter how plush, how gilded, a cage remains a cage.

[Alleo]

Who says the Ala Mhigans are more right than the Garleans? After all, they invited them and before that, the Ala Mhigans waged wars over lesser reasons than the Garleans are now. At least the latter share a common goal with us - stopping the Primals. Of course, the situation is a lot more complicated than that, as shown by the influence of the Ascians, and we could use much more information. However, Regula showed the Garleans are open to other suggestions and collaboration. But a peaceful solution with combined efforts to put an end to the primal threat is out of reach now thanks to the Resistance. We got a useless piece of desert in exchange, yay.

Maybe I am missing something but how many wars did Ala Mhigo wage? I remember one which was a long time ago and which was forgiven by the state that was attacked by them. Right now Garlemald is in the wrong. They took the freedom and sovereignty of a country that had nothing to do with their own past (which happened on another continent), so its completely in the right of the people from Ala Mhigo to be free again, especially since they are threated very badly too.

And where exactly did they invite Garlemald? They had a bad ruler and the rebellion took him down (which was an state affair and not a world affair) and Gaius took this chaos to get the country himself. Its not the fault of the Ala Mhigan people that they had one bad ruler and it did not give Garlemald any right to conquer them.

For you it might be a useless piece of desert, for the people living there its a chance to live their lives in freedom and not in constant fear of being killed and they might finally be able to start their business with stones again, which was stopped by Garlemald. (And lets not talk about all the cultural events)

About primals: Garlemald did not start their conquering because of the primal threat. They were already going around the world and conquering countries before they met their first primal. This meeting was one of the reason that they did not manage to conquer Eorzea thus it might be why they started to want to kill primals forever. Gaius, after hearing about the scions, which is a bunch of people that want to find a solution against the primals (without killing all beast tribes..), did not decide to talk to them, no they slaughtered a lot of the scions and took the others with them to torture out informations. Not really quite the diplomatic way.

Anyway this is just my opinion. I do not believe that every single Garlean person is evil, since we did saw some good ones, but the government itself really needs a change.

About the question of the OP: Well Garlean cant use magic so this would mean that certain jobs would not be available for people to use and you are also restricted to one specific race. At the same time they would need to create a completely new scenario for those players, so in the end those are probably some reasons why people cant play as Garleans. And maybe the devs did not feel that playing as one of them would be a good lore reason, especially since they like to paint them in a very bad way, especially in SB.

Yet, thankfully, we know that isn't the case at all as it has been confirmed through multiple sources that whilst some regions suffer under Garlean rule others have prospered or remained virtually unchanged. It is largely inevitable that we will see such areas in the future for ourselves as we explore more of Hydaelyn. We've also seen Garlemald keeping the peace in Kugane.

They are not the one that are keeping peace in Kugane? Or do you mean that they can keep peace even if they are within the reach of others? I mean its their embassy so it would be horrible if they would not outwardly be able to be peaceful in such a position? Yet even though there should be peace, they ambushed Gosetsu and us, so they are not truly following that too.

Also just because some countries are suffering less or are getting better under their rule does not change the fact that they also threat some countries truly horrible and that even those countries that are good under them lost their freedom. Maybe instead of conquering them they could have traded with them and made their lives better through that.

[Theodric]

Zenos is mostly the reason as to why Gyr Abania and Yanxia suffered so terribly. So, too, are the Resistance factions within each nation forced to shoulder some of the blame for making it difficult for a smooth transition to occur. Most nations within this city are perfectly happy to pick fights and conquer territory that does not belong to them until they themselves are the ones on the receiving end of such treatment. Limsa broke territorial treaties. Ul'dah caused a rival nation to fall and covered up the truth. Ishgard started a war with the Dravanians.

As for the developers painting the Garleans in a bad light? They have not done as such. In fact, most conflicts within this setting are developed with nuances in mind. It's pretty silly to ignore the fact that Zenos himself denounced Garlemald and was not working towards furthering Garlemald's cause. The Emperor himself even branded him a monster.

In regards to Kugane, though, the Garleans did keep the peace - it was the Warrior of Light and his allies who caused trouble. They also chose to use blinding powder to sabotage Sekiseigumi patrols. Calling it an ambush is dishonest when the protagonists willingly journeyed to Hingashi to stir up trouble and cause a revolution. Why wouldn't the Garleans react to that if they caught wind of it? How can they be blamed for reacting when the purpose of the visit for the protagonists was to ignite a war that served to cause countless lives to be lost? Every last man, woman and child that perished stains both Zenos' hands and the hands of those who orchestrated the chaos on the Warrior of Light's side of the fence.

At any rate, getting back to the main matter at hand the point of the inability for Garleans to wield aether could be mitigated by the passage in the lorebook that states that some Garleans are capable of using it. Such a thing is rare but for the purpose of the main story a Garlean Warrior of Light would boast the power of the Echo at Hydaelyn's behest. Unless, of course, a completely new point of entry for the story happened to be developed which may be something that occurs in the future. The XIVth and XIIth Legions were also left largely to their own devices. With so many different Legions - each operating differently - it wouldn't exactly be a stretch for at least one of them to be more prone to diplomacy and negotiations. The Emperor himself isn't without rival factions, either - many have been crushed but there's potential for some to still remain in hiding.

Though, ideally, I think it'd be more interesting for Varys not to be a 'big bad' and instead come to see the merit of a truce. By all accounts he is a very great tactician and a similar approach to how the Nilfgaardian Empire is handled in The Witcher 3 could easily apply to FFXIV. The Warrior of Light and his allies do not need to push reform and install useful puppets everywhere they visit. It'd be very refreshing to see such an approach fail and require a more humble angle.

FFXII handled things exceptionally well too. A major plot point is the protagonists deciding against using excessive force in retaliation against The Archadian Empire because it would result in many innocent men, women and children perishing in the process. So, too, does that apply to FFXIV. Granted we also visit the capital of Archades during FFXII itself but I'm sure we'll do the same at some point in FFXIV - either in 5.0 or 6.0. One thing is almost certain, though - there will be yet more wonderful nuances that ensure such things are far from black and white.

It's going to be wonderful!

As an aside, for the longest time lore fans in WoW were constantly saying how it would be impossible for Worgen and Demon Hunters to be playable. You can say a lot of things about Blizzard's storytelling but they managed to implement both in a way that fit rather well. I see no reason why, in the future, Garleans could not be playable - we know that there's going to be at least two more expansions but it's also realistic to expect more beyond that. Unless we get another Final Fantasy MMO or the game suddenly ceases to be profitable I doubt we're going to have to worry about it dying off anytime soon.

[WhiteArchmage]

In regards to Kugane, though, the Garleans did keep the peace - it was the Warrior of Light and his allies who caused trouble. They also chose to use blinding powder to sabotage Sekiseigumi patrols. Calling it an ambush is dishonest when the protagonists willingly journeyed to Hingashi to stir up trouble and cause a revolution. Why wouldn't the Garleans react to that if they caught wind of it? How can they be blamed for reacting when the purpose of the visit for the protagonists was to ignite a war that served to cause countless lives to be lost? Every last man, woman and child that perished stains both Zenos' hands and the hands of those who orchestrated the chaos on the Warrior of Light's side of the fence.

Iiii'm gonna contest this point here. Hingashi is a free nation and the Garlean Empire respects its independence. The WoL and the Scions did not arrive in Kugane to stir trouble in Kugane but to seek passage to Doma (THERE they aimed to stir up revolution and liberate Doma), so are the Garleans taking offense to plans of revolution in their conquered and subjugated territory? Yeah, but they are the invading force, the Scions are aiding the revolutionaries (or, as Ashelia B'nargin Dalmasca would say: "The Resistance") in part for their own agenda, true; and that's not to mention that the Garlean troops that ambushed us in Kugane are as much at fault of breaking the "no violence" treaty as we are since Hingashi is NOT their territory. I also take offense to the "sabotaging Sekisegumi patrols" thing, we used blinding powder (which doesn't seem to cause lasting damage and the quest even fails if you attack them) as opposed to killing them; we're not trying to harm the Sekisegumi, we're just trying to flee an ambush and not land in prison (we are technically guilty of breaking the law IN SELF-DEFENSE).

[Theodric]

They didn't intend to stir trouble within Hingashi itself, no - but they did intend to cause trouble for a neighbouring nation and risked dragging Hingashi into things if it ended up going badly. As for the Sekiseigumi, it was supposedly 'harmless' but the act of being blinded abruptly causes an immense amount of distress and potentially pain as well. I'm sure everybody has gotten sand or dust within their eyes at some point - it isn't a pleasant experience at all. Now, the Garleans only broke the peace by assaulting the Warrior of Light and his allies. The Warrior of Light and his allies, meanwhile, broke the peace by assaulting both the Garleans and the Sekiseigumi. Thus they are the party most in the wrong in that particular case.

[CaesarCV]

I agree with some of these arguments, but not with others. Still though, I'm happy that we can have such complex discussion on these topics! I'm going to handle these one on one since there's a lot to unpack here.

Zenos is mostly the reason as to why Gyr Abania and Yanxia suffered so terribly.

This is incorrect. As soon as Zenos took control from Gaius I knew that people would be making these arguments, but they are unfortunately incorrect. While it is true that Zenos made the suffering in these regions far worse (instituting extra brutal policies in Gyr Abania, installing Yotsuyu in power) he is most definitely NOT the source of all of them. This is especially apparent in Ala Migho, where most of the problems for the population stretch back to Gaius's regime. Zenos did not create the slave camp of Radiata. Zenos did not utilize effective slave labor and not care whether or not the Ala Mighans die when constructing their bases and installations. Zenos did not create the Skulls, a unit shown to be explicitly oppressing the people. Zenos did not ruin the trades and livelihoods of the once prosperous quarrying market. Zenos did not ban the Ala Mighan Religion, nor was he responsible for the mass conscription which caused problems in countless examples. There is more of an argument to be made for Doma, but even then they are shown to be caught under repressive policies, face major discrimination, and have not benefited at all from neither Magitek or Imperial Rule.

So, too, are the Resistance factions within each nation forced to shoulder some of the blame for making it difficult for a smooth transition to occur.

There is some merit to this argument, but it in the end comes back to victim blaming. After all, it's not the fault of the ruthless conquerors for oppressing the people, it's the people's fault for resisting! If they just wouldn't' stand up, the Garleans wouldn't have to come and cut them back down to size! The logic of 'reprisals' for resisting oppression has been used by countless tyrannical empires in the past, and much of it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. There was no 'peaceful transition of power' for many of these states. They were violated and conquered, so it's only logical that they might resent the Empire for it.

Most nations within this city are perfectly happy to pick fights and conquer territory that does not belong to them until they themselves are the ones on the receiving end of such treatment. Limsa broke territorial treaties. Ul'dah caused a rival nation to fall and covered up the truth. Ishgard started a war with the Dravanians.

What you're describing here is effectively the logical fallacy known as Whataboutism. Not to mention that the acts of those nations are not necessarily comparable to the incredible lengths that the Empire has gone to oppress the populace, and continue their ruthless exploitation. But to prevent myself acting hypocritical, I'll stop that here.

It's pretty silly to ignore the fact that Zenos himself denounced Garlemald and was not working towards furthering Garlemald's cause. The Emperor himself even branded him a monster.

A good point, I've actually planned on writing a big post on Zenos and his relation to previous antagonists! That being said, it doesn't exactly exonerate Garlemald of many of its atrocities, given that, as pointed out earlier, most of them were committed before he entered Ala Migho and Doma.

In regards to Kugane, though, the Garleans did keep the peace - it was the Warrior of Light and his allies who caused trouble.

This requires an incredible misreading of events to the point of delusion. It's possible that you're misunderstanding the rules of Kugane, which might be the point of contention. Kugane's rules, however, are actually quite simple. It is an enforced neutrality, and an enforced peace. Outsiders are to set aside previous squabbles while within the city, and none are to bear arms or fight. Any who break these rules are to be either killed or banished by the Seikeisegumi. It's the relative simplicity of these rules that causes it to have the reputation as a playground for spies and political games between the nations, who can't handle their conflicts through simple violence. That being said, the Garlean soldiers clearly and blatantly violated these rules. They attempted to utilize lethal force despite the rules against it. They did not keep the peace in the slightest, and instead violated its dearest principles. Meanwhile the Scions merely acted in self defense. Reacting to the WoL's arrival is certainly logical, but they did not keep the peace.

At any rate, getting back to the main matter at hand the point of the inability for Garleans to wield aether could be mitigated by the passage in the lorebook that states that some Garleans are capable of using it.

Definitely right! Although having the character be a half-blood would also be a good excuse. It also works since it would be a good explanation for why they would have left the Empire, Half-Bloods face a good deal of discrimination within Garlemald. Despite the inherent weaknesses of their bloodline, Garleans are very much proud of it. I personally doubt there will be a second point of entry though. Although it would certainly be fun, FFXIV seems to have a rather linear story, even compared to most MMOs. Having such a radically different storyline injected in later is unlikely. Not that I wouldn't mind having something like that.

With so many different Legions - each operating differently - it wouldn't exactly be a stretch for at least one of them to be more prone to diplomacy and negotiations. The Emperor himself isn't without rival factions, either - many have been crushed but there's potential for some to still remain in hiding.

This is totally true! I could definitely see something like that happening. Not to mention that it would align with some of the previous examples we've seen in the game of reforming tyrannical governments and dangerous groups. Of course it would be on a grander scale for the Empire than something like, say, Ishgard, but it's definitely possible. The game seems to generally place more blame on high members of governments and their cultures rather than the general citizenry. They even set up a faction already that opposed the extermination of Eikons and expansionist policies. So it's certainly possible we'll find some more sympathetic Garleans to team up with in the future.

FFXII handled things exceptionally well too. A major plot point is the protagonists deciding against using excessive force in retaliation against The Archadian Empire because it would result in many innocent men, women and children perishing in the process.

That would be a fascinating and interesting plot point, but at the same time we've seen no excessive force used against Garlemald. If anything it's only been applied in the opposite direction. It was the Garleans who have employed superweapons and the like in the past after all. Still though, that would be a cool direction to take the story in, although I'm currently unsure if that's what they will do.

Though, ideally, I think it'd be more interesting for Varys not to be a 'big bad' and instead come to see the merit of a truce.

I agree that it might be more interesting that way...but at the moment Varis is clearly set up as one of our primary antagonists. Even just looking at the guy shows that much. And currently he has more interest in conquering Eorzea and committing Genocide on the beast tribes (and possibly the human races as well) meaning he's not exactly looking for truces right now. Although he is a good tactician, he still is shown to be exceedingly ruthless and sociopathic. The man was introduced spitting on his grandfather's coffin and reacted with more annoyance than anything at his son's death after all. Then again, the writers could surprise us! I'm looking forward to seeing how this will develop in the future.

To get back on track, I could definitely see Garleans as player characters in a future expansion, although I doubt they'd be siding with Garlemald necessarily. It'd just be way too much baggage to add to the plot if they couldn't assume the main character's political affiliations.

[Theodric]

Eh, Varis doesn't strike me as a sociopath at all. He is a hard man, certainly, but his people have been persecuted in the past and grew powerful out of necessity to ensure their survival after being forced to relocate from fertile lands and carve out a living for themselves in what is essentially a derelict wasteland. Furthermore, leading a vast Empire is not an easy affair. There are many enemies and rivals to deal with both near and far. The lore book even reinforces such points when discussing the origins of Garlemald and the people who inhabit the region.

[Alleo]

In regards to Kugane, though, the Garleans did keep the peace - it was the Warrior of Light and his allies who caused trouble. They also chose to use blinding powder to sabotage Sekiseigumi patrols. Calling it an ambush is dishonest when the protagonists willingly journeyed to Hingashi to stir up trouble and cause a revolution. Why wouldn't the Garleans react to that if they caught wind of it? How can they be blamed for reacting when the purpose of the visit for the protagonists was to ignite a war that served to cause countless lives to be lost? Every last man, woman and child that perished stains both Zenos' hands and the hands of those who orchestrated the chaos on the Warrior of Light's side of the fence.

What? The WoL came into Kugane and just wanted to get a ship to travel towards Doma. Garlemald paid that Namazou money, so that he will tell them if someone wants a boat towards Doma, so that they can attack them. This is what happened to Gosetsu. He was asking around and got the attention of the Garlean soldiers. They set him up and attacked him (even though this was not allowed by the rule of the city) and made it look like he was at fault and that was the reason why he was arrested. They again did the same with WoL and his allies, who only looked for a traveling vehicle. They did not attack them or anything. They were set up for a trap and when they were attacked by the Garlean soldiers they defended themselves. How in any way can this even be interpreted that it was the WoLs fault? So in the end Garlemald attacked anyone that asked for a travel to Doma because they believed them to be rebels. They were the aggressors who went against the laws. After we were sent to a trap we could not just hand us over to the ruling body so we needed to use those smoke grenades to make a disappearance. Also at that time nobody of them even knew that a group of people would travel from Eorzea to Doma to cause trouble, so no these Garlean soldiers where the one attacking first.