Boss Autoattack Damage and FFXIV's Tanking Meta

[BluexBird]

So ever since I started playing this game 2 years ago, I've both heard from a lot of people and seen in several videos, that the FFXIV tanking meta is different than most other MMOs. I'm just gonna quote something off of one of Xeno's video, but this is by no means something I've heard just from him:

"The way you tank in FFXIV is completely different than a lot of other MMOs. This game is all about Mechanic Damaging abilities or tank busters. The encounters in this game are very scripted, and the bosses will do massive damage on the tank only for a second, in short predictable bursts. This is mechanic damage. [...] ...If a boss is not hitting you with Mechanic Damaging abilities, then you are just receiving autoattacks - fluff damage. When the boss uses Mechanic Damaging abilities, you mitigate them with a cooldown.

The video then goes on to say something along the likes of "if your healers can't heal you through autoattack damage, then you need to get new healers".

Flash-forward to today's raids, where you have:

Alte Roite killing me with random tail slaps (not talking about the one before Twin Bolt/Clamp)
Catastrophe dropping me low enough so that I end up dying to the Dimensional Wave after the first tentacles come out
Halicarnassus doing 17k autoattacks and eventually killing me because they're hitting for 17k when I'm not mitigating

Given the above situations, is it still fair to say the tanking meta remains the same? Like, even during the Alexander raids, I remember being in a couple of situations where my HP would drop very low just through autoattacks, and by the time the healers decided to respond it would be too late.

I mean, just yesterday I was doing V3S, and the boss just randomly ends up hitting me with a 22k critical autoattack, which killed me. I have Vengeance running for the first Queen's Waltz and Dimensional Wave, but it feels like that's more for the autoattack damage I keep receiving. After Vengeance ends, I feel reluctant using another cooldown, because I like having something for after The Game, and have Convalescence up for the next Critical Hit.

But according to all the things I've been hearing about tanking, apparently I shouldn't be having to worry about using cooldowns for autoattacks. What is everyone's opinion on this? Is the meta changing to where tanks should start worrying about autoattacks?

[shao32]

as longer ppl can survive and hold agro without using the tank stance the meta will remain the same

[aqskerorokero]

tsk...the meta never bothers me.....if my hp is lower than 50% during autoattack, the party can enjoy full time tank stance no matter what tank I play, in 4 men, 8 men, raids etc.

[Jim_Berry]

tsk...the meta never bothers me.....if my hp is lower than 50% during autoattack, the party can enjoy full time tank stance no matter what tank I play, in 4 men, 8 men, raids etc.

Which is why I don't even question it anymore and just keep my stance active.

[Sylvina]

tsk...the meta never bothers me.....if my hp is lower than 50% during autoattack, the party can enjoy full time tank stance no matter what tank I play, in 4 men, 8 men, raids etc.

Same. if tanks can't MT in tank stance something is very wrong with the meta.

[dragonseth07]

Same. if tanks can't MT in tank stance something is very wrong with the meta.

If you want the meta to change, get a job at SE and change the game. Until you do that, we know what the optimized strat is, and ignoring it on some weird principle is asinine.

[aleph_null]

Same. if tanks can't MT in tank stance something is very wrong with the meta.

Meta is based on what's optimal given the situation in the game, it can't really be wrong. You don't like it? It's fine, but it doesn't make your "non-meta" playstyle optimal.

[Legion88]

Alte Roite killing me with random tail slaps (not talking about the one before Twin Bolt/Clamp)
Catastrophe dropping me low enough so that I end up dying to the Dimensional Wave after the first tentacles come out
Halicarnassus doing 17k autoattacks and eventually killing me because they're hitting for 17k when I'm not mitigating

Alte Roite is fully scripted, no random abilities, no random damage income.
Catastrophe is also fully scripted with a high amount of mechanics to handle and high mechanical damage, nothing random.
Halicarnassus is designed around the tank buster Critical Hit and it seems that most of her abilities have the possibility to crit unlike that of previous bosses who can't crit outside of their autoattacks. Crit seems to be the design of herself.

[BluexBird]

Alte Roite is fully scripted, no random abilities, no random damage income.

I know, sorry. I said "random" because it's not the same as the double tail slaps that you get after the downburst mechanics. There is a point in the fight where Alte Roite spawns his fireballs, but before he casts Downburst, he throws out a single tail slap attack. And it just pisses me off if I die to that because honestly, I don't feel like I should be having to use a cooldown just for that one tail slap. Especially considering I'm about to not take damage for over 10 seconds because it'll just be whole lot of sliding around.

I feel OP's being too conservative with his CDs.

I'm not. I use Holmgang for the second critical hit, so that I don't have to use anything other than Awareness/Raw Intuition at the start. I then use Vengeance before the Spellblade: Holy mechanics, which lasts me through Queen's Waltz as well. Thing is, I then have the option of using Rampart after Vengeance ends, but a lot of it will get wasted because after Dimensional Wave, she barely even autoattacks anymore. So I save it after The Game, Holmgang the next Critical Hit, and then use Convalescence to help with Dimensional Wave and tanking the boss during White Flame.

So what I'm saying is, I feel like I'm having to worry about mitigating autoattack damage. Which, according to the tank meta, I shouldn't be having to do.

Likewise, Raw Intuition can also be used to mitigate the vast majority of the Tail Swipes in O1S.

In O2S you've got rampart up for every double frontal cleave, which is really the only heavy damage that the meatball puts out. Either you are using your mitigation kit properly and your healers are bad, or you need to reconsider your pattern of cooldown usage.

I start O1S with Thrill and Rampart. I do use Raw Intuition for the tail slaps after Roar, but then I have to use Vengeance for Twin Bolt. And then all I have is Convalescence until Rampart comes up, and THAT'S the period I'm talking about.

For O2S, I start of OTing usually. Then after I tank swap, I need a cooldown for the cone attack. Then it's tentacles. Now the thing is, right before Epicenter hits, the boss is still autoattacking me, and I just feel like if I don't use a cooldown for the supposed "fluff damage", I'll just end up dying to something else.



Basically, what I'm trying to find out is... should I just save my cooldowns for the tank busters and not give a crap about anything else and call out my healers if I happen to die? Or should I be doing something to stop my HP from ever getting that low, using the healing that is already being given to me?

[aleph_null]

snip

If you risk dying to that one wyrm tail then you should either cd there or let your healers know to not let you drop too low. Tank survival is both your job and the healers', there's no such thing as "I just cd here and there, and if I die elsewhere not my fault" and if you want an optimized (not tank catered) run, you need to let your healers know what cds you're using and you need to know what heals your healers use on you. If you don't have enough cd to mitigate then ask your co-tank to cover or do tank swaps when needed. Let your dps know too if you want palisade/apoc/feint/addle/minne at specific times. Those are mitigation tools as well.

I honestly don't like the saying "if you die to autos your healers need to be replaced" since it oversimplifies things too much. Your healers may expect things to go differently, like eos healing the tank or the tank surviving long enough until charybdis since they'd drop to single digit so having high hp before that would be a waste if the tank could survive without a heal. If your healers never let you die to stuffs then they probably haven't found their limits yet. I'm sure whoever came up with that saying was half joking or didn't mean it to be taken literally.