Is Fordola the monster Lyse says she is?

[Theodric]

Speaking of Radiata, one of the NPC's there outright states that the Ala Mhigans themselves killed her brother simply because they believed him to be a traitor due to his decision to work there. Given that those in the settlement were simply trying to get by there's very little in the way of justification for such an act.

[Hinoto-no-Ryuji]

[A] friendly reminder that Ala Mhigo is historically a warmongering state, and has previously tried to do to other city-states what Garlemald has done to them. But muh evil Garleans, or something.

Ala Mhigo started one war, a century ago, over a need for resources and after overseas trade routes crashed their primary industry. Far from conquer Gridania, they tried to take a piece of the Shroud for their own. The morality of that incursion can be debated, for sure, but I think it's a pretty enormous exaggeration to characterize them as "war-mongering" when precious few NPCs carry that chip on their shoulder (if any); hell, Ishgard is arguably more war-mongering than Ala Mhigo is!

It's also a pretty enormous exaggeration to put the Autumn War as equivalent to Garlemald's ongoing and self-righteous world conquest. It's comparable to Garlemald's initial Ilsabardan conquests, maybe, but the later Othardan and (attempted) Eorzean ones are wholly different both in scale and motive.

[Theodric]

Which, in turn, is no different to the Roman or British Empires. Both of which proved a necessity in order to advance civilisation across the world and both of which still leave their mark upon modern society to this very day. It is very likely that Garlemald's mark on history will be much the same - we're already seeing more and more Magitek use, for instance, at the hands of both Garleans and non-Garleans alike.

As far as the Ala Mhigans and war are concerned, though, let's not be dishonest. Ilberd pretty much started the fresh war with Garlemald and contributed heavily to there being little opportunity for diplomacy or negotiation as a result of his actions. He also involved himself in a plot to assassinate a foreign monarch and betrayed an organisation sworn to defend Eorzea against those who sought to harm it. Ilberd, too, is as Ala Mhigan as they come - and he's not the first to try and summon a Primal/Eikon in the name of Ala Mhigo either. There was the lad from Little Ala Mhigo who sought to do the same thing - which would have likely caused a lot of war and strife as a consequence. He, however, was talked out of it.

[Hinoto-no-Ryuji]

Their legacy remains to be seen.

The point was more that Ala Mhigo's past actions aren't really comparable to Garlemald's current ones, and the impact and cultural legacy of the Autumn War was being exaggerated.

[CaesarCV]

This is really an interesting discussion so far! Personally, I see Fordola as something of a tragic figure. She was born into an Ala Migho that was never free, and could not really buy into the idea of it becoming free and sovereign again. At least not in the way that her fellow citizens do. She was probably somewhat indoctrinated as a child, and resistance was futile. The massive oppression of Ala Mighan citizens and any semblance of Resistance would only feed into these views, quite possibly making her see Resistance more as foolishness than heroism. A scrappy young lass, she wants to improve her situation, and those of her fellow Ala Mighans. And if beating them won't work...why not join them?

In comes one Gaius Van Baelsar. Gaius has been thus far one of the highest believer in the 'Garlean Ideal'. To him, the Ala Mighans are simply weak fools too craven to come together. This of course ignores the fact that he committed a great many acts of subterfuge and pushed social unrest since the Empire had great difficulties taking the province conventionally, but he has a very particular worldview that would ignore that fact anyway. He sees the Empire as far more meritocratic and just than it probably is. This is shown quite clearly with how he opposed Project Meteor despite it's larger governmental support, and his legion's subsequent banishment and branding as traitors. He brutally repressed the citizenry, seeing those who would not rise above their slave-like existence as nothing more than weak-willed fools. To him, the Skulls were a perfect idea, one completely within his worldview. The problem with Ala Mighans wasn't their treatment, or their pride, it was that they weren't acting Garlean enough. If he could make them act like true Garleans, then they would lead the others to follow their example. He was very, very wrong however. All he ended up creating was a group that would never see respect as true Garleans, and hated by the people of Ala Migho.

Gaius was, in a strange way, an idealist. His dream of Equality was one that would never be supported by the Empire at large, which saw other groups as nothing but Savages. And this sort of twisted idealism rubbed off on Fordola. She saw 'being more Garlean' as the only way to obtain freedom for Ala Migho. That if she just kept working hard, if she just kept licking at the heels of her Imperial masters, she, and her people, would obtain true freedom. They could become True Garleans. It didn't matter to her how many sacrifices it would take. Just as rebuilding after the fall of Rhalgr's reach seemed to the resistance, she saw turning the cannons at her own men as one more sacrifice, one more bloody step to liberation. Part of what makes her Tragic is that she was fully misguided in this, and liberation was achieved only despite her actions. That every beaten citizen and sacrificed skull was only pushing Ala Migho down, not leading it to freedom and greatness. Her dogmatic thinking also brings her more in line with previous human antagonists like Gaius and Thordan, whose dogma prevents them from seeing better alternatives.

Lyse, in contrast, is one who has been in a much more supportive and free-thinking organization. To the Scions of the Seventh Dawn, there is always a 'better way' a path towards victory, hope however desperate. To her, there is never 'no other choice'. Idealistically, she wants to build an Ala Migho for everyone, even people like Fordola. She doe not see the division in the people as 'the way things are', but as a problem that can be solved. To her, Fordola is a woman who committed atrocities bcause she couldn't see a brighter future, and instead bought into terrible logic and counter-intuitive actions.

In short, Fordola is not a monster..but a terribly misguided and tragic woman. She thought she was doing what was best for her people, but she was oh so very wrong.

[Draginhikari]

It is an interesting discussion the conflict between Lyse and Fordola as they rather reflect one another fairly well. Either of them could have easily become the other under a different set of circumstances. Frankly, I think the fact that Lyse decided Fordola should not die reflects on Lyse more subtle changes throughout the story because I don't think she would have been so merciful earlier on in the SB storyline. Though not as much as some people may have wanted to see it does show that Lyse did change and is capable of further change. By the end Lyse doesn't see everything in the 'punch the problem away' and acknowledges that even though they won the battle the work was far from over. I image the political discord that is likely to follow in the following patches will likely reflect further into that development, possibly for both for them.

[LineageRazor]

In short, Fordola is not a monster..but a terribly misguided and tragic woman. She thought she was doing what was best for her people, but she was oh so very wrong.

I agree - and for extra fun, even now, with Xenos crushed and Ala Mihgo liberated, she probably STILL doesn't think she was wrong. And, scarily, she might not be.

To be brutally frank, the Resistance probably should not have been able to take Ala Mihgo - at least not with the ease that they did. Xenos did practically nothing while the Alliance and the Resistance waltzed up to his front door - a few NPCs even comment on how strangely easy their advance was. Probably most importantly, Xenos did not call for reinforcements from the Empire. All because he WANTED us to have a chance. He WANTED us to make it to him, and give him the personal battle he so craved.

While Fordola did have ultimate confidence that Xenos would defeat us, the fact that he didn't doesn't change the fact that the Garlean Empire as a whole is scarily effective at world conquest. Xenos is no longer around to hold the Empire back from crushing its enemies. In Fordola's eyes, the fact that we "liberated" Ala Mihgo is a hopeless farce. No, in her eyes, we've DOOMED Ala Mihgo. The Empire will not be giving it a second chance or a third Viceroy. The next time they invade, they will wipe Ala Mihgo from the map. They will leave no survivors. She tried to warn us. She tried to explain the futility of our resistance. But we did not listen, and now it is too late. Fordola probably hates us now more than ever.

For this reason, I don't anticipate any repentance from Fordola. She may want revenge, but as far as she's concerned that's all that's left for her. The only way her world view is likely to change is if we conquer Garlemand outright - and if that were to ever happen even that wouldn't open her eyes to the fact that we were right. Rather, she would be shocked, and later bitter, at the fact that we'd done something that should have been impossible. Her faith in the military superiority of the Garlean Empire is resolute.

Is she a monster, though? I don't think so, but the label of monster depends a lot on perspective. She was a human being, who was dealt a bad hand, and did what she thought was her best with it. Is she a monster to Lyse? Certainly - but Lyse's perspective on how one should respond to overwhelming adversity should be taken with a grain of salt. Lyse is more the type to stand against overwhelming odds and be crushed by them - and actually had to be held back from doing exactly that a few times this expansion. It's not reasonable to expect that kind of quasi-suicidal heroism from everyone, and certainly not from the young girl Fordola was when Gaius first indoctrinated her. From that point forward, she'd been saddled with so many "lesser of two evils" choices, that making them eventually became second nature...

[CaesarCV]

While it was mostly his desire for the 'royal hunt' there's another reason that Zenos didn't ask for reinforcements. Namely the fact that if he had they probably would not have come. It's explained that due to a mixture of the losses at Baelsar's Wall and the simmering tensions from the Civil War most of the Legions are stuck garrisoning their home territories. It seemed that Doma was not alone in seeing the Civil War as their chance to obtain Freedom. It's said (I believe by Alphinaud) that the territories are keeping their regional armies around to ensure there aren't revolts, or to put them down if necessary. I imagine that the successful liberation of Ala Migho and Doma will exacerbate things, although Zenos was probably not planning for that.

On an unrelated note, interestingly Varis's rival in the civil war apparently opposed the brutal subjugation and expansionist policies of the Empire. Imagine what would have happened if he had won instead...

[SendohJin]

In short, Fordola is not a monster..but a terribly misguided and tragic woman. She thought she was doing what was best for her people, but she was oh so very wrong.

Is she a monster, though? I don't think so, but the label of monster depends a lot on perspective. She was a human being, who was dealt a bad hand, and did what she thought was her best with it. Is she a monster to Lyse? Certainly...

She's still a monster, a monster is determined by their direct actions and the direct results of those actions. She knowingly fired on her own troops. There's only two ways to justify this in which she is not a monster (1) she didn't know her troops were there - not true, (2) the enemy posed an imminent threat to a greater number of her troops or civilians - also not true.

Most dictators generally accepted as monsters thought they were doing what they thought was best for their people. It doesn't matter what their logic or reasoning behind it is and it doesn't matter how they got that way.

[Daralii]

While it was mostly his desire for the 'royal hunt' there's another reason that Zenos didn't ask for reinforcements. Namely the fact that if he had they probably would not have come. It's explained that due to a mixture of the losses at Baelsar's Wall and the simmering tensions from the Civil War most of the Legions are stuck garrisoning their home territories. It seemed that Doma was not alone in seeing the Civil War as their chance to obtain Freedom. It's said (I believe by Alphinaud) that the territories are keeping their regional armies around to ensure there aren't revolts, or to put them down if necessary. I imagine that the successful liberation of Ala Migho and Doma will exacerbate things, although Zenos was probably not planning for that.

On an unrelated note, it's intereating Varis's rival in the civil war apparently opposed the brutal subjugation and expansionist policies of the Empire. Imagine what would have happened if he had won instead...

He could be our ticket into the country, assuming him or any of his loyalists are still alive. Whenever we march on Garlemald, we need to do so ensuring a proper transfer of power followed by gradual reforms. Anything as radical as just killing Varis outright would cause a complete collapse of the Empire, probably tearing Ilsabard apart.