Is Fordola the monster Lyse says she is?

[RBlackshield]

Fordola definitely deserves death. Mitigating circumstances aside, she didn't just kill her fellow Ala Mighans, she also made it a point to further their suffering just because they didn't follow along with her misguided attempt to ingratiate herself to the empire. Killing her fellow Ala Mighans in battle is not something I think she deserves death for since she considered herself a citizen of the empire, but she willingly participated in the brutalization of her fellow countrymen.

[Anonymoose]

I think it'll all depend on which of the victors gets to write history, and just how inclusive they want Ala Mhigo's rebirth to be. Ala Mhigo is supposed to be soverign nation again and a lot of factions are in play. Mob justice on prisoners of war is a bad start.

It clearly pained Fordola to fire the cannon. Like most "I was just following orders." defenses that don't go well at tribunal, though, what were her options in her own mind? Zenos was the viceroy of the entire territory and the legatus besides; this was an active warzone and his orders were clear. She could defy them and the whole of the Skulls would likely be killed for it down the line - after they'd become traitors in the eyes of their own people for some chance at a new form of freedom - or she could pull the trigger herself and lose less. Could she stand have sacrificed so much for no gain AND hand the Imperials another example of how Ala Mhigans lack resolve, how Ala Mhigans are unreliable, how Ala Mhigans do not secure victories? Gaius was gone, Zenos was a monster, and what once seemed reasonable was becoming more and more of a nightmare but they were in too deep.

You're right. I killed them. Ansfrid, Hrudolf, Emelin, all the rest─trained and fought with every last one of them. Good soldiers to a man. I gave the order that led to their deaths...and I knew exactly what I was doing. They died so that all Ala Mhigans could live free. That was all we ever wanted. We made a promise that we would do whatever it took so that one day...one day the imperials would learn to accept us. But everything comes at a price. And if you haven't got the means to pay, then you pay with blood. Service guarantees citizenship, but citizenship guarantees naught. It's not enough to do your part, oh no. You have to run faster, fight harder, kill more and more and more─and only then will you be equal. That's just how it is out here in the provinces. You buy your freedom with blood─there is no other way!

They can choose to hang her for that, but they'll have to hear it.

And I agree that the Skulls complicity in the oppression of the outlands is more likely to doom them in post-liberation Ala Mhigo. And yet from the point of view of "It's the carrot or the stick, there's no other way, and we're trying to earn our freedom," the Skulls think they have a point. The people in the Fringes and Peaks represent resistance. If Ala Mhigo was weak and its fall inevitable and its history gone, these people embraced squalor and a foregone conclusion for nothing but pride and in so doing ensured that the Empire was always just over their shoulder, always opting for the stick; it was their fault it was taking so long to secure order, to earn trust. Is it justifiable or forgivable for them to accept that complicity and take their frustrations out on their own people? Not really. But is it hard to understand? And is it sufficient to kill them all?

It's your bloody fault we're stuck out here patrolling this godsforsaken wasteland! It's your fault I have to listen to people go on and on about how “Ala Mhigans can't be trusted”! I've worked and toiled harder than any man! I'm a citizen, godsdammit! And what are you!? A stupid, stubborn little dog who'd sooner bite the hand that feeds him and pine for the good old days!

Ala Mhigans are thus left with difficult questions: Where does justice end and retribution begin? What level of vengeance undermines their being worthy of their own freedom? What degree of mercy will allow for healing, and what will only allow future problems to take root? Not saying I believe Fordola and the Skulls are on one side or the other, but if you're going to swing the state-sanctioned axe, this all has to be crystal clear.

[Flaris]

I felt absolutely no sympathy for Fordola, she chose the path to walk on and has to deal with it. Murdering her kinsmen on the attack on Rhalgr's, and when she ordered the attack on her own troops. Although I think she should be forced to pay for her crimes, not death. Im with Lyse on this

[TinyRedLeaf]

So Lyse's little hero of justice announcements like "I should kill you for what you've done!" or "You'll live to see justice!" just kind of come across as posturing.

I find it frustrating that people have selective memories over what Lyse said. If we want to take the measure of what Lyse has become, and what she intends to achieve for her country, we need to also take into consideration all the things she said, and not just the ones that seem to so rile up the anti-Lyse crowd.

I'd specifically highlight Lyse's promise to Raubahn and the WoL, after the Flame Marshal took the both of them to his bedraggled home town, where Curtis Hext rallied the original rebels with his creed: "Liberty or death."

Liberty or death... That's all you can hope for in war. Father understood that...and you want to know if I do too.

I swear to you, here and now: I will fight until the end, be it liberty or be it death. But the freedom we win must be for every Ala Mhigan — even ones like Fordola, though they may hate us, and the ananta, though they may fear us.

We'll fight and we'll talk and we'll find a way to make it work for all of us. Compared to all that, retaking our home will seem like the easy part.

It was clear to me that regardless of the outrage and disgust she felt from the knowledge that a compatriot could knowingly order the deaths of her own comrades, Lyse believed in a greater cause that required a measure of justice, even for "monsters" such as Fordola.

By the time the Alliance reached Castrum Abania, Lyse had already grown considerably after the Scions' sojourn in Othard. Where once she may have been naive about her people's desire to fight for their freedom, she now understands that those who are stronger must lead the way, and show them that a better future is possible.

And if the revolution descends into persecution, then liberty is lost even as it's won, as Curtis once pointed out:

...liberty should not be the end in of itself. Liberty is the chance to build something better. A stronger, more prosperous home for our people. It's not quick or easy work, and it is never truly finished — but if you neglect it, then sooner or later, you look up to find you've traded one tyrant for another.

It's in this context that we should remember Lyse's choice in Ala Mhigo, when she had every chance to kill the defeated Fordola, there and then.

I should kill you here and now for what you did! But there's no place for that kind of justice here. Not in my Ala Mhigo... I'm taking her back with us. Alive. She's going to answer for what she's done.

While she doesn't say it explicitly, I believe Lyse fully intends a to hold proper trials for war criminals.

A trial that can be acknowledged as fair, and with penalties meted according to a law that everyone can accept.

That in itself will be a lot easier said than done. Even in real life, a fair trial is not always possible to arrange, especially over an issue as emotional as a war crime.

But, as Lyse and Curtis already realised, the liberation of Ala Mhigo was always going to be the "easy part" of the revolution. The hard part is ensuring that justice follows.

[YianKutku]

It's one of those topics that I have no answer for myself, and thus am interested to see how the plotline handles it.

It's abundantly clear that Fordola believes she had no choice but to do what she did. The story makes it clear that this is obviously not the case, but Fordola doesn't (or refuses to) believe that until the end, when Ala Mhigo is finally liberated despite her actions.

So now Fordola has to face the fact that all her brutality and sacrifices were for nothing. Quite possibly worse than nothing, in that it may have been counter-productive.

She could cling to her old beliefs, she could acknowledge that they were wrong yet fall back on "I didn't know better", or she could go through a complete change of heart and face her actions and guilt. The possibilities after that depend, again, on how the writers want to go through with it.

If there's something Ala Mhigans have in common, no matter which side they stand on, it's an overabundance of pride. This has been hammered into players' heads ever since Little Ala Mhigo (and indeed Quarrymill directly before that) in the MSQ. I doubt Fordola is any different.

I don't actually know how the story will go from here. There might be a concrete answer to the question posed by the OP: the story makes a moral stand, and takes the consequences of alienating players who might not agree. Or the story could just waffle on it, leaving it unresolved (and, to me, unsatisfying), playing it safe. There's also taking Fordola's case as its own specific circumstance; judgment without creating a precedent, being sure to point out that it's entirely dependent on individual context.

I would assume 4.2 as the earliest for a satisfactory conclusion to Fordola's arc, assuming they do little else but focus on it and the greater picture Fordola's actions implied. If it gets wrapped up in 4.1, it will feel a little too trite.

Having said all that, Fordola is still very guilty of needlessly brutalizing the population. While I don't think she actively beat up anyone outside of combat, she still stood there and tacitly approved of the beatings. She's a senior staff officer; she is not supposed to "take her frustrations out" on citizenry, subjugated or otherwise, rebels or otherwise. There is no benefit to such an action other than immediate emotional gratification, and as Rem, Fordola should be far above such things, and should also be stopping anyone under her command from doing so.

Then again, considering Zenos of the "I'll execute my own senior staff for boring me" school of command, I may be expecting too much professionalism of the military might that subjugated two continents and made a fair go at a third.

(Tangentially, this is why I am, pun unintended, cool to Ysayle. Because while she is guilt-stricken over the damage done to Ishgard by the Dravanian attacks in HW, I don't recall her ever apologizing for hijacking the supply caravan to Revenant's Toll back in 2.x.)

[Kohdo]

A lot of Lyse's rhetoric towards Fordola probably stems not from a reaction to Fordola's specific actions but moreso that she betrayed her people.

I kinda feel like characters like Lyse are too self righteous and haven't really had that knocked out of them.

Also a fair amount of this.

And a friendly reminder that Ala Mhigo is historically a warmongering state, and has previously tried to do to other city-states what Garlemald has done to them. But muh evil Garleans, or something.

[YianKutku]

A lot of Lyse's rhetoric towards Fordola probably stems not from a reaction to Fordola's specific actions but moreso that she betrayed her people.

Considering the Scions count Cid nan Garlond as an ally, I'm not sure this is entirely the case.

[Kohdo]

Considering the Scions count Cid nan Garlond as an ally, I'm not sure this is entirely the case.

Lyse and Fordola are both Ala Mhigan, so Fordola betraying her people to the Empire probably struck a nerve with Lyse. Cid betrayed Garlemald, which nobody opposed to Garlemald would realistically take offense to.

[Theodric]

To put it simply, Fordola suffered under Zenos' leadership. Fordola prospered under Baelsar's leadership. Perhaps 'prospered' isn't necessarily the right word but we know that Baelsar elevated and respected those who proved their worth to him. Her dream could easily have become a reality under his rule.

Zenos did not, however, serve Garlemald. He pretended to, but he was ultimately serving his own selfish whims. He engaged in experiments behind his father's back. He engaged in needless cruelty and manipulation - not to Garlemald's benefit but because he was bored and wanted a good fight. He killed his own men on a whim if they displeased him - sparing only those who he felt would benefit him by pushing them over the edge. He did as much to Yotsuyu. He also did it to Fordola.

It's not a simple, straightforward situation. Lyse didn't even grow up in Gyr Abania. Most of her time was spent elsewhere - and a significant chunk of her recent life involved lying about her identity. She's hardly a paragon of stability herself.

[YianKutku]

Lyse and Fordola are both Ala Mhigan, so Fordola betraying her people to the Empire probably struck a nerve with Lyse. Cid betrayed Garlemald, which nobody opposed to Garlemald would realistically take offense to.

Which, again, brings up the philosophical questions of what constitutes actual betrayal. Fordola knows nothing about free Ala Mhigo. I don't even think she knows much about the King of Ruin outside of whatever has been taught to her (which will probably be surprisingly congruent between Ala Mhigans and the Empire). Putting her actual actions aside for now, if she works for the Garleans and rises to a high rank in their occupying military, is she betraying the idea of Ala Mhigo? (Recall that her retort to accusations of being a traitor was that the accusers are "no kin of mine".)

Similarly, was Ysayle betraying Ishgard by leading the heretics (especially since until HW, the Church and the State were inseparable)? If Nero suddenly yet inevitably backstabs us, is he betraying us, or simply proving his loyalty to the Empire? Or even both?

Are there degrees of betrayal? Ala Ghiri traded with Imperials because they were the only customers around. Radiata is literally a village of people who worked for the Empire. We can look at a Pilus Prior like Fordola and say that this is Bad, and look at a janitor in Radiata and say that this is Good, but there are all sorts of gradations in between that need to be worked out. I suspect Lyse's point is that rather than draw an arbitrary line in the middle, she'll have to figure out a way to deal with all of it fairly.

In which case, the obvious route I can think of is, again, to focus on Fordola's actions, whether personally or by her orders. Which is not to say the game will go in that direction, but it's the one that I think will bear the least controversial results.

All this, of course, is separate from the other aspect of Fordola's crimes, which is the way she went about her atrocities thinking that they were necessary evils, only to find out that they were not necessary at all.

EDIT: Found another post of mine made when I was going through that part of the MSQ (the destruction of Rhalgr's Reach), with both English text and what I translated the Japanese dialogue as:

Meffrid (English): Traitor! Kinslayer!
Meffrid (Japanese): But you're Ala Mhigan!

Fordola (English): I am no kin of yours.
Fordola (Japanese): I am of the Garlemald Empire.

So it's not clear that Fordola sees herself as betraying Ala Mhigo, as much as being part of the Empire in the first place.