National Leadership in Stormblood and Heavensward

[FJerome]

It doesn't appear to be an actual eye. Not in the typical sense, anyway. It looks more solid - like a gem - but we don't fully understand how it works other than it potentially being what allows for Pureblood Garleans to have heightened spatial awareness. We've seen Purebloods cover them up with helmets, circlets and hair. I suppose makeup could work too but it could potentially irritate the area/cause damage.

Those always had some sort of crystal over where the eye would be, though, presumably to still let the light through.

[Vexander]

I said they had the means of doing so, not that they applied them yet.

How do you know they have the means if they've never used them? If they had the means, wouldn't they have just gotten past Urianger's barrier to get the Allagan Technology they wanted on Azys Lla?

[Mysterysword]

How do you know they have the means if they've never used them? If they had the means, wouldn't they have just gotten past Urianger's barrier to get the Allagan Technology they wanted on Azys Lla?

I spent the next 3 paragraphs after that sentence specifically explaining how Ysayle managed to infiltrate and take down Ishgard's wards. Then I mentioned that Garlemald managed to plant a deep-cover operative, in the form of Lucia, in Ishgard. If Lucia had remained loyal, she could very likely have done some major damage to Ishgard's wards as well. They could then apply that same method to Sharlayan's wards.

As for why they didn't apply these methods to Urianger's wards, it's not like they had the time to infiltrate the Scions and get Urianger to take it down from the inside.

[lycropath]

I wonder if they are grooming Pip to take control of the Immortal Flames so Raubaun can return to Ala Mhigo.

[Lunafreya]

Interesting take on Lyse. I think the same way but the haters will never understand.

[Vexander]

I spent the next 3 paragraphs after that sentence specifically explaining how Ysayle managed to infiltrate and take down Ishgard's wards. Then I mentioned that Garlemald managed to plant a deep-cover operative, in the form of Lucia, in Ishgard. If Lucia had remained loyal, she could very likely have done some major damage to Ishgard's wards as well. They could then apply that same method to Sharlayan's wards.

As for why they didn't apply these methods to Urianger's wards, it's not like they had the time to infiltrate the Scions and get Urianger to take it down from the inside.

See, here's the thing. Ishgard =/= Sharlayan. Sharlayans' magic is the most advanced (known) on the star at the moment. It rivals the likes of Amdapor, Mhach, and Nym during their haydays. It would NOT be difficult to put spies in Ishgard since they were distracted by a War. Conversely, it IS difficult to put spies in Sharlayan as they're a very insular people and we don't know yet whether they even allow foreigners onto their lands. Given the general Sharlayan mindset, while not impossible, it is infinitely more unlikely that there is a Garlean Collaborator in Sharlayan. Collaborators are usually the poor, those feeling cheated by their nation, and as such, not the sort to have access to Sharlayan's resources. If they did have that access, they'd have no reason to be collaborators.

You're applying Garlemald's tactics with other nations to Sharlayan, ignoring all the variables in the process. Meanwhile the lore we do have solidly backs that either Garlemald has no collaborators in Sharlayan, or they don't have enough influence or access to higher information to give Garlemald the knowledge and ability to take down Sharlayan wards.

Regulus couldn't take down the wards in Azys Lla. This is proof that Sharlayan Magic still thwarts the Garleans. If Garlemald has the ability to bring down Sharlayan Wards, they would've used it. They didn't take down the wards. Ergo, they don't have the ability to bring down the Wards.

[YianKutku]

Conversely, it IS difficult to put spies in Sharlayan as they're a very insular people and we don't know yet whether they even allow foreigners onto their lands.

It's a little vague. The lorebook seems to refer to both Old Sharlayan (on the islands up north) and the Sharlayan Colony (in the Dravanian Hinterlands) as "Sharlayan", and does not differentiate between them.

It's well-established that the Sharlayan Colony accepted students from all over Eorzea (and possibly beyond), welcoming anyone who wished to learn. Since the colony is now abandoned, this obviously no longer applies.

However, most of those references are in the past tense. For the present tense, we have two lines on the profile of Sharlayan, page 168 of the lorebook:

Starting with the prestigious Studium, Sharlayan has numerous famed academies that accept students from all nations.

Accordingly, many groans can be heard from foreign students come meal time.

This implies that Old Sharlayan still accepts foreigners, albeit in the form of students. There is no indication of whether others are allowed. Some trade obviously exists, since Sharlayan publishing is apparently a lucrative business, and scholars from every other nation "willingly pay great sums" for treatises and books from Sharlayan. Therefore, there might be foreign merchants present, although we don't know if it's a Kugane situation.

[Vexander]

Fair points, though students aren't likely to have access to Sharlayan's defenses. Given the Studium's stance of prohibiting Sharlayan knowledge from leaving Sharlayan hands, a safer assumption is that these students, carefully screened, are learning more general topics rather than taking, 'Sharlayan's Defenses 101.' As for trade, good to know, but for all we do know for sure Sharlayan acts through an intercessory.

Regardless, I maintain that Garlemald, at the time of the Warring Triad, did NOT possess the knowledge and ability to remove Sharlayan Wards, and thus, cannot overcome Sharlayan's magical defenses. I do believe all bets are off with the Resonant in play now though.

[LineageRazor]

Fair points, though students aren't likely to have access to Sharlayan's defenses.

Why should that matter? The whole point of being a spy is to discover vulnerabilities. To that purpose, you get in by way of whatever avenue you're allowed - and from that point, you make your OWN avenues. That's a spy's job. No one's suggesting that a Garlean waltzes in and is immediately promoted to head of security. They spies come in as students, and "screened" or not, there's no guarantee they'll all be caught. Once in, they play the role of student dutifully, and when unobserved, ferret out what they can - and the things a spy can ferret out can be both surprising and frightening.

Has Garlemand done this? Maybe. They give every impression of being more on the "invade and smash" philosophy rather than the "infiltrate and subvert" side of the equation, but we do know there are spies so it seems likely they have Sharlayan spies, as well. We know too little about the Sharlyans to presume that their measures against espionage are ironclad - and given that no world power in real life has managed ironclad defenses against espionage, it seems unlikely.

As for whether Garlemand's spies have managed to find ways around Sharlayan's defenses, that is unclear. There's no guarantee that Garlemand would immediately move on them even if they did; their resources may be directed elsewhere at the moment. It's also presumptuous to assume that Urianger's wards could be used to protect an entire nation. You can use a firehose to push back a crowd - but does that mean that it's a workable way to defend a country? There doesn't need to be some kind of magic barrier protecting them to fend off the Garleans - the simple fact that they have plentiful and powerful magic users is enough reason for Garlemand to tread cautiously. Even if they could win through brute force, if they're not careful it could wind up a Pyrrhic victory.

[Mysterysword]

snip

The infiltrators don't even have to be students. Garlemald has proven itself capable of fielding spies that go deep cover for years without being seen(Lucia), and maintaining contacts that initially start out very minor, but grow over the years to become influential(Eline Roaille). Sharlayan experienced a massive influx of immigrants 15 years ago, when the people in the colony packed up and went back to the motherland. It's not too farfetched to assume that Garlemald could've slipped some spies in there, or contacted some collaborators. Not all collaborators have the same motive, either. Sure, some want money. Others want their safety and status guaranteed if or when the invading power wins.

I really don't get why you seem to be constantly equating Urianger's wards with Sharlayan's wards. Maybe they stem from the same principles of magic(and that's a shaky assumption to make, considering all the very different schools of magic that Sharlayan practices), but that says nothing about any unique twists Urianger might have added himself, not to mention the fact that a short-term ward, meant to temporarily seal off an area, and a long-term ward meant to protect an entire nation, would be very different in terms of scale.

Simply put, just because they couldn't take down one, doesn't mean they can't take down the other from the inside. Also, you would think that, considering the Sharlayans had the entire Isle of Bal dedicated to studying the Echo, they would know if the Echo could take down their wards, and be accordingly prepared. Not to mention, the Garleans have spent decades studying magic, even if they can't use it, and adapting their magitek to defend against it.