PVE and PVP separation in Stormblood??

[Syrus_Draco]

This difference is that PVP gear back in the day was not stream lined as it is for PVE gear. If you held on to various old pieces of gear then you might have a few pieces for an optimal PVP set, but if you didn't then you were behind. The content to get certain pieces of gear was not hard sure, but you had to farm older content sometimes to get the pieces that you wanted. So you're farming PVE (RNG be on your side or not) to play optimally for PVP? Almost makes PVP gear useless, especially when collecting gear above the cap.

IMHO you shouldn't have to farm PVE just to play PVP. If you want to have PVP gear be significant/have progression, then you have to equally match teams/players with similar gear. Since that isn't the case, you're creating a large gap and bar of entry for anyone new to play PVP. PVP should not be for -just- the veterans. There's always the potential that new and interested players can rise in the ranks with time and practice to be just as good as the vets.

[Zandeth]

I agree with Syrus, PvP and PvE should be separate. What you use in one mode shouldn't need the other to get since it creates a large divide between new and old players. It's a problem that plagues many MMOs where endgame players have significant advantages, which disheartens newer players who wants to try it. Square likely thought similarly to this, as they lowered the minimum level to allow those newer people a chance to try it out sooner than previously. Though because of these changes, wolf marks have become less and less useful. We're about due for some more rewards in my opinion. Perhaps even a store that changes its wares based on your ranking. But that would be a subject for another thread.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

But it wasn't just for the veterans. We certainly never wanted it that way. But just as you're expected to meet minimum requirements for PvE, so too was that expected for PvP. I give a free pass in that much of what was known was NOT taught or explained by SE; the community largely had to help themselves there. But as far as gearing up? It couldn't be more easy. Hunts, dungeons, crafts, raid gear; all of it, synced down anyways. All you had to do was get the right secondaries for your job. Accuracy was such a low cap it wasn't even a major concern. A top raider in the best gear of that tier (assuming proper secondaries) would be synced to the same stats as someone who used a mix of old gear (of appropriate level with similar secondaries) lying around, and perhaps a few drops from the roulettes they run normally.

It took almost no effort to gear minimally for PvP, and simply by performing regular endgame activities, you'd be more than set. The difference then, was purely a matter of experience and skill, which many players lacked, and showed little willingness to change. This has only become worse now that these additional factors just don't matter. "Anyone can PvP now", but those who were before are absolute monsters now, due to sheer knowledge and experience. I can wipe out half a party in Shatter at the ice simply because they're either too focused on the ice and won't fight back, or they don't know how bad an idea it is to drop off a cliff and be at 50% HP with enemies waiting below. They don't know if they were there first and my team wipes them out, we can let the ice reset, then break it - even at 1% - and get full points from it. They think "base guarding" alone is a good idea. (It's not.)

I might sound mean to say it, and that's not what I'm going for, but the unwillingness to properly prepare for, learn, or understand PvP, both then and now, is the biggest detriment to players, especially with almost any entry barriers effectively removed now.

[Zandeth]

Some people just don't want to do PvE in order to be better at PvP. With a lower bar of entry, newer people can join PvP earlier and -learn- earlier. It's great that you and other veterans have that knowledge. How did you get that knowledge? From doing PvP a lot. You can't expect someone going in for the first time to know everything. It takes time to learn. By lowering the entry bar, you give those newer players a chance at that time earlier than in the past. I've experienced an absolutely hellish PvP system in another MMO because it allowed PvE gear into PvP. It gave those "veterans" a huge unfair advantage over literally everyone else strictly because they've been there long enough to get that gear. I'm very thankful Square made gear irrelevant in PvP because I don't want to experience that MMO again. If someone does something silly in Frontlines, you can teach them. Quick Chat isn't in Frontlines thank god, use your words. You claim to have that knowledge, so share it.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Between having literally mentored several players now, coaching and/or leading a team on the fly, writing and helping write guides, and practically jumpstarting my server's PvP community, I've done nothing short of support PvPers new and old.

Fact is, PvP until now was something you had to reach endgame for, thus one would expect you to already have a decent set of gear (as the sync level was the same as the entry level endgame gear). Issues only arose when people would show up severely undergeared, and weren't receptive to the advice given. Being met with "you don't pay my sub" as you try to tell the i130 BRD that he's far too low for the i180 synced content was twice the disappointment as you not only had someone who didn't want to learn, you had a liability on the team now as well. The fact that he's there means he reached max level, 60 back then, but had not endeavored to obtain proper endgame gear, which could simply be bought from a vendor at the worst.

What you're concerned about, that is gear advantage, was a mistake made early and corrected when Frontlines was introduced along with item level sync. Before, the old i70 and i90 sets could grant a team a heavy advantage (as you then even had to obtain the right PvP rank to even equip them). What happened was, some got in and won early, got the gear, then were simply unable to be matched with it. SE fixed that by implementing the ilvl sync, but it goes without saying - just like in the dungeons you'd have already run purely for the story progress by then - gear syncs down, not up. The issue was truly not the gear. It was the lack of proper knowledge and prep. Again, bad on SE for not doing anything to explain it, but just as bad on the players who didn't ask or seek that knowledge, and worse on those who were belligerent and didn't care.

We had a good system before. That's not to bash the new system at all, but to say that we lost something good (not perfect, good), that could easily be learned, IF people were more willing.

[Synestra]

And you can't call gathering/reusing old gear a hassle (maybe if you were going for Prototype pieces, but the normal raid token/gear system was already a hassle on its own), nor did you absolutely NEED any PvP gear at all.

I guess it was different for each jobs then as tanks needed mix of raid, pvp, dungeon and crafted gear if you wanted ultimate set and after STR/VIT adjustment tanks had to redo all accessories for both pve and pvp(it was pain to find crit/det fending until makai event)... so it was not breeze for all jobs if you wanted to have optimal items.

[Syrus_Draco]

Back in 3.0, if you wanted to play PVP optimally, you had to collect gear that had 0 acc since acc was useless in PVP, and PVE asked that you be at acc cap, so those two are conflicting. You'd have to farm non acc pieces for PVP, then optimize all the other substats for your job. While 4.0 got rid of acc, you'd now have to re-farm gear to optimize for DH.. IF they stuck with the old system to optimize your PVP gear. I'm not saying gearing for PVP is the most difficult thing in the game, I'm saying its extra work in PVE just to jump into PVP. Gear aside, you also had the difference in PVP levels, higher levels had a clear advantage with their Addtionals having stronger specs.

Lack of willing to learn and prep for PVP is not exclusive to that. If folks want to learn PVP and get good, they'll research and learn, just like PVE. If they want to PVP casually then let them. Folks who do want to learn will learn from their failures in PVP and adjust their play style as well as look up guides.

[Geryth]

I think the link between PvE and PvP is what it needs to be, really. PvE players can use PvP to level and to earn poetics for gear, get a couple challenge log entries for the gil rewards, and earn some of the titles and mounts.

Because I would consider myself mainly a PvE player, but I've been hammering PvP because I want the mounts. I wasn't even trying for it and I recently earned the Slaughterhouse title so some of the titles are also a bonus. But as soon as I get the mounts and achievements I'm after, I'll probably not come back to PvP until they add more achievements or content.

So I think there is plenty there to entice PvE players to do PvP. But the opposite isn't true, however. If you are a PvP player and that's your focus and you don't care for any PvE then there really is no reason for you to do any PvE. Most of the conversation so far has been about how PvE used to be necessary to optimally gear for PvP, and I think I'm on the side that agrees with the changes that's been made and that it's dumb to have to farm a dungeon, maybe even old content, just to gear optimally for PvP. I like the even slate everyone is on and how it makes the bar for entry simple and easy for any player that wants to try to experience PvP.

But overall, I really can't think of any other way to make a PvP player want to do PvE content that doesn't involve that work giving them some advantage in PvP. If it doesn't help you PvP, then there's no reason to do it. And if most players agree that we don't want to have to farm PvE for gear, or gather/craft for food or materia, all to give some player a combative advantage over another, then I think the prevailing sentiment is that we really don't want or need PvP players to have an incentive to do PvE content.

And I think that's completely valid, given the kind of game FFXIV is. It's a PvE focused game, with a huge emphasis on story telling. And with the current state that PvP is in, I think that point is hammered home when we consider how much of an afterthought PvP has been to the developers and how slowly changes come in. So overall, I think if a player's goal is to focus on PvP, then FFXIV is not the best game for them. I think FFXIV at its core and identity is the incentive to do PvE, and that we don't need to make some aspect of PvE necessary to perform better at PvP.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I said before that it's quite a detrimental mindset to think of this game as "PvE focused". I mean, PvPers aside, you might as well dismiss crafters and gatherers too, endgame is a much broader spectrum than most consider it. At the same time, to treat PvP as a means to a PvE end is kinda hypocritical, don't you think? Especially when one of the popular thoughts here is that you shouldn't have to go out of your way to play PvE content to be able to PvP. Thing is though, that's what we did, and it was "easy" in the sense that we'd already done it well before we could PvP.

I understand gear becoming irrelevant was to support allowing players to jump in as soon as they have a job unlocked (note: requires PvE to at least the bare minimum of unlocking a job), but before when it was effectively an endgame activity, by the time you've reached endgame, the gear is so largely available already. i180? You could buy it. Crafted? Do you craft or have a friend that does? Tome gear? Roulettes, or even just PvPing covered that. I hadn't touched Expert roulette in 2 months between 3.4 and 3.5. And as far as older tome gear, again, hunts made it ridiculously easy assuming you hadn't just thrown it on your retainer for glamour purposes later. Raiding? Normal raids were created more for the story than the challenge. If you were leveled enough to run them, you likely had no trouble doing so. The token system was a pain, but if you wanted it bad enough, you toughed it out. Just like anything you wanted in PvP.

I mean, we're trying to debate the necessary PvE investment "for anyone that's only interested in PvP", but then trying to rationalize that "it's a PvE game". Before now, and even now actually, you ARE going to have to PvE to get yourself in a position to play and enjoy PvP. And coming from someone who played both lv 50 and level 60 PvP, it was a non-issue. I speak only for myself but I DO like the PvE aspects of the game too. If not, I doubt I'd even be playing the PvP side. But the changes made - while some are functional and make perfect sense - were a bit extreme. Especially when the better answer would've simply been just better dev support for it (i.e. PvP Hall of the Novice, better in game tutorials, stat adjustments to facilitate lowbies, LISTENING TO COMMUNITY FEEDBACK), not simply wiping the slate clean and creating something effectively lesser, even if still (debatably) fun.

P.S. I want to note that food buffs and PvP actions w/ enhanced traits were - in most cases - hardly a huge advantage. Definitely helpful, but not complete tide-turners. Many times I forgot to switch my skills back to one job from another, and at one point had to completely work my way back up in a new GC (rank points tied to GCs), and rarely found myself at a loss for them. Mileage CAN vary on that between roles, of course.

[Zandeth]

I said before that it's quite a detrimental mindset to think of this game as "PvE focused". I mean, PvPers aside, you might as well dismiss crafters and gatherers too, endgame is a much broader spectrum than most consider it. Thing is though, that's what we did, and it was "easy" in the sense that we'd already done it well before we could PvP.

Except this game is PvE focused. Crafting and Gathering is also for PvE with crafted gear, some of which sometimes ends up as BiS or just really good endgame gear. Yes, that's what you did in the past. The past. It hasn't been like that since Heavensward came with Level 60. It doesn't really matter anymore unless you want Square to suddenly say PvP is only for Level 70 people and then Level 80 and so on. Yes, you have to do some PvE to get into PvP even now, because PvP uses Job Systems. You can't play as a Summoner if you don't -have- Summoner.