Dear Healers who don't DPS

[Miste]

these past few pages are just really the height of explaining why this argument needs to die already. Just leave people alone. Jesus. Nobody is changing anybody's mind.

This is a discussion forum...so if people are discussing things it seems like it is working as intended?

Nobody is forcing you to read this thread :/

To be fair if any of your comment is aimed at me personally (since I've been posting)...I was trying to clarify my stance because I was being labelled things that are not even close to correct.

[Vyriah]

Eh, that's some stellar level of sophistic at work, here.

That's just wordplay, you're moving the goalpost. That part about expectation is too widely generalized to mean anything anymore, it's too far from what I wrote it for to begin with. I was talking about adapting to how every is actualy playing, not what everyone want. You can't adapt to what everyone wants, and that's exactly why you don't listen advice of random player in dungeon finder (you'll hear the exact opposite the next run anyway). You ask your friends or search a tutorial about it. That's meta-game kind of things.
But then, it doesn't matter that much, it's just a small part of what I written and the rest was how the game is actually made with sub-optimal play in mind.

Also, you're the one got out of nowhere calling me hypocrite, I was just answering to that.
I just using your intervention as way to develop what I want to on the initial subject. I'm just posting to offer a different point of view possible for anyone else reading it.

[Penthea]

Would you argue that SCH and Noct AST only have to use their direct healing moves then?

At this point I would argue that a great deal of us are no longer debating the subject that this thread was intended to be about.

[Vyriah]

You're answering to the guy who litterally said "what if you where not using shield with SCH" just before. And after signed a message with "if you kill mob faster, you won't be out of mana for casting too much shield" with a proud "I'll wait" like there was no possible answer to this.

You know.
Those shields.
The ones you casted back in HW.
But not in dungeon because you were in cleric stance as a big fat noob healer letting Eos do all the work.

[magnanimousCynic]

Oh man I think I'm starting to taste some salt.



Anyone want some?

[Miste]

Also, you're the one got out of nowhere calling me hypocrite, I was just answering to that.

I didn't call you personally a hypocrite. I said the argument itself that you chose to use is hypocritical. There is a difference.

That's just wordplay, you're moving the goalpost. That part about expectation is too widely generalized to mean anything anymore, it's too far from what I wrote it for to begin with.

No it isn't just wordplay unfortunately...again you still don't understand what I was saying or you are just being purposefully obstinate. You cannot argue against facts anyway so I am not sure why you keep trying. The argument you made that I told you is hypocritical is factually hypocritical.

You cannot tell one side of the argument to "go use PF/FC/Friends and play with them if you have expectations of healer DPS", when your side could also "go use PF/FC/Friends and play with them if you have the expectation that people should automatically accept healers that do 0 DPS"

You have basically said you have the expectation that healers should be able to go into DF and do 0 DPS and everyone else cannot vote kick them for it and they must accept their playstyle. So if you are allowed to have this expectation for DF then unfortunately others are allowed their expectations that healers should be doing some DPS.

Either everyone can have expectations or no one can have expectations. Have to decide which one you want to follow. If you are allowed to have expectations then you cannot tell others they cannot have them. Sorry it just doesn't work like that.

Anyone want some?

Aw...I just ate some chips...now no room for popcorns ;_;

Is this directed at me?

Hrm considering that poster is openly rude to Moro I am thinking this post is them shamelessly being rude to Moro again.

I don't think it is about you Penthea...at least I would hope not. You didn't do anything wrong at all...then again Moro was a bit blunt with their post before but they don't deserve this rudeness either. -_-

[Penthea]

You're answering to the guy who litterally said "what if you where not using shield with SCH" just before. And after signed a message with "if you kill mob faster, you won't be out of mana for casting too much shield" with a proud "I'll wait" like there was no possible answer to this.

You know.
Those shields.
The ones you casted back in HW.
But not in dungeon because you were in cleric stance as a big fat noob healer letting Eos do all the work.

Is this directed at me? (a post of mine is just before yours) It would help if you quoted the person or said their name in the post.

If it is then I am very puzzled about this. I don't recall saying anything about killing mobs faster meaning I have to shield less. Not that I disagree with this but it's not always the case. Some tanks demand more healing than others and some tanks pull more than others. Yea more dps means less healing, provided the party doesn't suffer greatly due to dpsing instead. I also don't recall saying anything about waiting.

I didn't get to stay in cleric stance for overly lengthy periods in HW 4-mans as one of the tanks I frequently play with chain pulled all the time in HW.

It probably isn't directed at me, but doesn't hurt to ask!

[Vyriah]

Is this directed at me?

No it wasn't. Why would it be ?
It was more for the person you were quoting.
And it was a reminder of all those "SCH where lazy back in HW, they where just DPSing all the time and letting fairy heal all the dungeon" every time someone dared to speak about the current state of the job.
It's funny when you put it side to side with what's written here.

Sorry Miste, I'm not in the mood the re-write whole Ioneso pieces with you so I'll just say again a part of my messages that you missed : healers already get away from DF. It's been said here on this very subforum. It's visible with the shortage in heal in leveling random dungeon queue (and bonus for healer that go with it) happening at certain hours. It's not matter of "what if they were using PF and FC", they are doing it (I always runing with a friend so we can complain at those damn DPS playing DPS). And I'm telling you : you can do it too. It's good tool for what you search. Like really. It's cool, use it. The more the people use it over DF, the less that said issue will be an issue. And yes, it works with any playstyle. You can already found first blind run in PF, or fast leveling dungeon. This just exist, it's not an argument over a forum, it happens in the game.
But if you want to rely on DF, you'll be matched with anything and everything. That's just how the tool works. And you can kick any you want from your party, but that doesn't mean SE endorse what you're doing. I'm pretty sure scaring players away from dungeon is something the could get pretty serious about given all the lenght they go the make them accessible to everyone (wich include PF). Also, kicking the healer will just take longer than dealing with and clearing the dungeon, as you will have to wait for another one. But that's another thing I've written that most of you just keep ignoring.

Also, i'm not sure how responding bluntly to someone speaking bluntly is rude. But it's the same as what you're telling me now : I wasn't rude at the poster, I was rude at what was written. Because I don't like downbeating, and every one on these forums are relying way too much on it. When you accuse a whole population of the game of being inherently bad and proceed to say that doing DPS on a trash pack would prevent MP starvation because the mobs would die faster, you can just hope not being called out on it. Because you can't advocate for more healer DPS and forget that AoE DPS is what dries a healer manapool the fastest. This a largly above being blunt, and that kind of answer seems the norm here. But calling a flat out wrong reasoning "stupid" is rude.

But if you want less rude answer about those supposedly impossible to answer questions :

If a healer can only heal can a tank only flash? This was proven to hold aggro by a player in this very thread.

Yeah they can.
But Mana spam combo generally involve using riot blade and is something that is done at low level dungeon when you don't have your tank stance yet and every DPS is hitting different mobs (or multi DoTing). But then, you would have to take real player behavior as an exemple, and new tanks only using ennemity combo is more frequent that tank only using flash. A lot of new player think that flash will actually keep aggro through the whole fight, but doesn't work at low level and they end up running every where.
So using aggro on only one mob is the exemple you want here. there's few instance of tanks doing that in the game outside of low level, are that means they're really pissed about DPS. though, it would much more bothersome than healer not doing DPS.

To be honest, if a PLD would run a dungeon usng only flash, I pretty sure I wouldn't realize unless some one start complaining about it. If mobs are packed and the aggro is here, the rest is indeed bonus. I still find it's not a problem, outside of the fact that no one will naturally do that and speaking volume about 500 healer DPS and doing this just to try to make a point over a forum seems like the opposite of what you're defending. You couldn't even piss off said bad healer with this as they certainly aren't monitoring every thing you're doing.

Since killing enemies mtigates damage aren't healers helping themselves when they DPS? Dead mobs can't hit back.

The problem with DPS = Mitigation = Heal, is that it means that Heal = DPS. It's mathematical, you can't really get arround math.
More factually, the gain in mitigation you gain by doing DPS will be more significant if you do the most possible DPS, wich will drain your mana. But then, just having a dome up for it full duration is better mitigation, better uptime, better mana cost. And that thing is generally considered an unworthy option of SCH kit. So any well placed lustrate is a DPS gain over doing more DPS. Overheal is a DPS loss, but it can't be a healing loss because healing is too potent in this game.
So no, Mitigation through killing thing isn't thing, unless things die really fast and you don't even need to heal, or only the bare minimum. And this doesn't exist in FF XIV.

More DPS means just faster trash clearing. Nothing less, nothing more.

Holy's stun lock is some of the best mitigation in the game on big pulls, it stops everything. Why wouldn't you use that?

Both the cast and the time it need to be active are long, so its a tool that must be used with care. Also, the stun only applies on the first few cast and it need coordination with the tank to be really beneficial or it risks to just make tank using CD for nothing. It also have high mana cost.
Out of the three healer AoE, it's the one the require the most to actually have a good handling of your job. Miasma 2 doesn't prevent you from using most your kit and lightspeed + gravity allow some more reactivity.

For a minimum contribution, multiple target aero weaving (and extra aero) is safer by far if we're talking about someone who isn't used to DPS while healing. But it's hard to blame someone being precautious about Holy spam.

There, reasonnable simple arguments. Something I've yet to see against the fact trash mobs having too much HP is what causing those discussion, or against the fact that gatekeeping plyare incomfortable with their job hurt the game as whole, or against the fact remarks adressed by someone you don't tend to be less convicing than someone you know or asked yourself. Those are three solid argument against blaming the player for not doing DPS.
In any case, the suppression of cleric stance as we knew brought those issues and there were already talk about reducing mobs HP in lower level dungeons, it something they could apply most higher level dungeon maybe outside current extension ones. But then, downbeating other healer is really low. They certainly don't need more they already get.

[Sebazy]

I didn't get to stay in cleric stance for overly lengthy periods in HW 4-mans as one of the tanks I frequently play with chain pulled all the time in HW.

If you're properly pushing it, chain pulls in most HW dungeons weren't a problem at all (The earlier levelling dungeons are a big exception here ofc). At the level cap there's no excuse tho!

I can pull pretty much any HW era log from slower pugs to mass pulls with static members. I've always managed around 80%+ uptime on cleric in 60 cap HW dungeons unless there's a very significant issue with the tanking (Usually me pulling agro).

As far as SB's 60 dungeons go, the only 2 big pulls that get me properly worried is the double gorillas + dogs in Ala Mhigo and the final packs in Temple of the Fist. As long as those two pulls are avoided the rest is fine. I've managed over 3k in Temple of the Fist with big pulls (sans the final 4) and I'm pretty confident I'll be able to get very close to 4k combined DPS assuming I ever get geared this tier.

[Tridus]

Im waiting for the "Tank dps more" and "DPS dps more" thread. Very rarely i see a tank breaking 1.5k dps and actual dps doing 3.6k - 4k+ dps. If you want me to do more i expect the same from you

The DPS equivalent to this thread is "stop standing in bad even if it won't kill you!" You can get away with it on a lot of fights, but you're just making life harder for the rest of your team by doing so... which has a lot of parallels to healers who stand idle for extended periods of time instead of tossing some DPS.

Tanks? Honestly, some tanks I wish were LESS focused on DPS. Some of them tunnel in on that so badly that it negatively affects their tanking, which should be priority.

At the end of the day, its a team game. If you can do something to help your team, then it's reasonable to expect you to do it. That doesn't mean you DPS to the detriment of healing. But if you're idle because there's nothing that needs healing and your MP is good? Why not toss some damage and end the fight faster instead of doing nothing? Mobs dying faster means less healing to do, after all.