New Job Thief Concept

[Eloah]

This is the whole Time Mage debacle that I think has finally stopped. Just like some people have asked for a Time Mage in FFXIV, Se will not make one since Astrologian is the time mage of XIV. Similarly, there will be no Thief Class or Job since Rogue is XIV version of a thief. I know I mentioned this in a post way back when, but not always does a FF game have both they usually have one of the other or the Thief job upgrades to the Ninja Job.

Edit: Also jobs don't have guilds, that is classes, so really it makes even more sense that way.

As for this, the Jobs of Paladin, Warrior, Astrologian, Monk, Dragoon, Ninja, Samurai, and Machinist, all have "guilds" that we know of. Just because we don't have access to a "guild", though we do in the case or AST and MCH, doesn't mean they don't exist. And those are just the ones we can confirm have "guilds". Although, the Bard quest seems to hint that a new "faction" is forming within the Quivers Hold. The Dark Knight quests seem to indicate that there is a place where DRK go to train. And the Summoner quests show a slight resurgence. I have not finished RDM so I can't say for certain. But as of right now only WHM, BLM, and SCH don't have "guilds" because of the rarity of the arts.

Also while I wait for something to download i'm going to try and Dissect your idea. Brace yourself, lol.

Okay I'll have to do a general overview since I have something else to work on and am not feeling well.
First thing is, remember to take into account the new system that has been set into place. Any skill that is to be replaced by another skill now has a trait indicating it as such. Your abilities Kiss of the Viper and Throat Stab do not reflect this.
Second, in regards to traits, remember that some of the traits will be shared with Ninja, and only the ones past 30 would begin to become specialized. Although, admittedly the trait line up has become less ridged. But your traits Dual Wield do not make sense since the dripping blade trait would still be there. The same sort of applies to Flee. Maybe make Flee effect a skill you want to add, not movement speed. Additionally the Hide trait needs a rework, Hide in battle should not happen.
Third, you need to specify what is a weapon skill and what is an ability, and their duration and cooldown times. You have several skills that indicate they cost Stealth Gauge points, but how long are they can i build up the gauge and spam the skill? you need to specify these parameters.
Fourth, It seems like your Gambits are directly taken from the Mudra system, which is fine... in a way, but how do we execute them? There has to be a way of choosing which skill I want at that time.
Finally, I think, there are your gauges. The Stealth Gauge you did okay explaining, its basically the Ninki Gauge for Thieves, which has it's own issues but I digress. But what does the Trickery Gauge do? You don't explain it, it just says it tracks your debuffs. Are they DoTs and do you want Thief to be a DoT based job like SCH, SMN, and BRD? Or is it the stat debuffs? And if it's stat debuffs how does just a number help me track them? If I have 4 debuffs and 1 falls off how do i tell which one to reapply?

All in all, while I didn't review this very intently, from what I can see, all you really did what take the Ninja concept and give them names that maybe sounded more Thief-esc. The idea just needs to be fleshed out more so that we don't just have 2 DPS that basically mimic one another in concept and design.

[Shurrikhan]

This is the whole Time Mage debacle that I think has finally stopped. Just like some people have asked for a Time Mage in FFXIV, Se will not make one since Astrologian is the time mage of XIV. Similarly, there will be no Thief Class or Job since Rogue is XIV version of a thief. I know I mentioned this in a post way back when, but not always does a FF game have both they usually have one of the other or the Thief job upgrades to the Ninja Job.

Personally I've never really felt any stake in the whole Time Mage debate simply because I've never known any staple set of lovable (FF or beyond) mechanics, interactions, and functionalities associated with the Time Mage, whereas I have for the Thief. As Yoshida said, it was a missing staple, and yet it feels like it took none of the spark from it's predecessors. The Rogue doesn't feel like a Rogue. It feels like a Monk/Dragoon hybrid with a gimmick that only comes into its own, somewhat, with Ninja.

For those who do feel invested in the Time Mage idea, maybe that does comes from some really awesome previous iterations of lore, interaction concepts, or mechanics. Personally, though, while I felt a little cheated that, say, Gravity didn't actually add mass to anything, which could end up being a really awesomely manipulable if there were any semblance of physics in this game, I didn't know what else I might or might not have been missing.

@Main Topic
Sadly, though, that's also why I feel ill-equipped to Dissect your work here, Sandpark; my view of the Thief has more to do with its contribution to the game as a whole, and what it gives and implies access to. As just another damage-dealer, I can't meaningfully advise its place in the line-up.

[Sandpark]

This is the whole Time Mage debacle that I think has finally stopped. Just like some people have asked for a Time Mage in FFXIV, Se will not make one since Astrologian is the time mage of XIV. Similarly, there will be no Thief Class or Job since Rogue is XIV version of a thief. I know I mentioned this in a post way back when, but not always does a FF game have both they usually have one of the other or the Thief job upgrades to the Ninja Job.



As for this, the Jobs of Paladin, Warrior, Astrologian, Monk, Dragoon, Ninja, Samurai, and Machinist, all have "guilds" that we know of. Just because we don't have access to a "guild", though we do in the case or AST and MCH, doesn't mean they don't exist. And those are just the ones we can confirm have "guilds". Although, the Bard quest seems to hint that a new "faction" is forming within the Quivers Hold. The Dark Knight quests seem to indicate that there is a place where DRK go to train. And the Summoner quests show a slight resurgence. I have not finished RDM so I can't say for certain. But as of right now only WHM, BLM, and SCH don't have "guilds" because of the rarity of the arts.

Also while I wait for something to download i'm going to try and Dissect your idea. Brace yourself, lol.

Okay I'll have to do a general overview since I have something else to work on and am not feeling well.
First thing is, remember to take into account the new system that has been set into place. Any skill that is to be replaced by another skill now has a trait indicating it as such. Your abilities Kiss of the Viper and Throat Stab do not reflect this.
Second, in regards to traits, remember that some of the traits will be shared with Ninja, and only the ones past 30 would begin to become specialized. Although, admittedly the trait line up has become less ridged. But your traits Dual Wield do not make sense since the dripping blade trait would still be there. The same sort of applies to Flee. Maybe make Flee effect a skill you want to add, not movement speed. Additionally the Hide trait needs a rework, Hide in battle should not happen.
Third, you need to specify what is a weapon skill and what is an ability, and their duration and cooldown times. You have several skills that indicate they cost Stealth Gauge points, but how long are they can i build up the gauge and spam the skill? you need to specify these parameters.
Fourth, It seems like your Gambits are directly taken from the Mudra system, which is fine... in a way, but how do we execute them? There has to be a way of choosing which skill I want at that time.
Finally, I think, there are your gauges. The Stealth Gauge you did okay explaining, its basically the Ninki Gauge for Thieves, which has it's own issues but I digress. But what does the Trickery Gauge do? You don't explain it, it just says it tracks your debuffs. Are they DoTs and do you want Thief to be a DoT based job like SCH, SMN, and BRD? Or is it the stat debuffs? And if it's stat debuffs how does just a number help me track them? If I have 4 debuffs and 1 falls off how do i tell which one to reapply?

All in all, while I didn't review this very intently, from what I can see, all you really did what take the Ninja concept and give them names that maybe sounded more Thief-esc. The idea just needs to be fleshed out more so that we don't just have 2 DPS that basically mimic one another in concept and design.

The thief is a melee dps who's majority of good stuff is locked behind the stealth gauge. It's meta is a DPS that dishes out more damage when debuffs are applied on the enemy. It's strength on certain skills multiplies/increases the more debuffs you have in effect.

1.The trickery gauge displays how many debuffs you have applied on targeted enemy.
2.The second function is tracking accomplice which is a skill that increases the duration for other party member's dots.
3.The reason I added any damage to Dual Wield is because Ninja has a speed buff and damage buff as well. If there was no damage buff, thief would be at a disadvantage. The difference is Ninja has always on damage buff with an activated speed buff and thief would have an always on speed buff and damage buff but with the speed buff slightly faster and damage buff slightly lower.

4.The reason flee is an auto trait is because it would be button bloat if thief had two versions of sprint.

I'll elaborate more later at work now lol.

[Duelle]

Hmm....

If we make THF as a branch from ROG, the main thing would really be establishing some sort of specialization for THF so that it stands out from NIN. For that, I'd suggest the buff to Throwing Dagger go to NIN (make it generate Ninki or something), while buffing Mug for THF. This is merely thematic, but I feel it would fit both jobs while also being callbacks to older FF games (where NIN's main gimmicks were Dual Wield and the Throw command). By the same token, Sneak Attack making a return as a THF-only skill would be a step in the right direction, specially since you have the Stealth Gauge.

I'm looking over your OP so that I can give better feedback, but there are some good foundation in there.

[Anova]

The thief (and the rogue) run into problems in a themepark MMO for the same reason that Red Mage and Bard cannot be true hybrid or support classes.

Such classes do not fit well into the constraints of the holy trinity needed for good dungeon and raid design. If the endgame was more of a sandbox, we could more easily see the appeal of a thief or rogue, instead of the assassin/ninja it currently is.

However, the truth is that you have to function either as a damage dealer or a support. And if you are planning a debuff job, your debuffs will, by necessity, be limited in their efficacy against bosses, primals, and all the fights that do actually matter.

Overall, it's not a bad idea, but I just don't see how the job itself will feel any different from the ninja. You could have a sneak-based job quest (about 8 quests), but the main story will still have you running around as the warrior of light, fighting and killing eikons, and saving the day. There is no way to escape that reality unless you specifically create a separate sneaking story line and play style for the thief.

[Duelle]

Such classes do not fit well into the constraints of the holy trinity needed for good dungeon and raid design. If the endgame was more of a sandbox, we could more easily see the appeal of a thief or rogue, instead of the assassin/ninja it currently is.

I think that depends on how you intend to use the class. If it were me designing it, THF would be a sort of less refined alternative to NIN. NIN train specific arts and have a method they follow to get things done. THF would be more like the guy that fights dirty and wins fights through agility, wit, and improvisation.

Provided we want to put the work in, I think that distinction has a lot of mileage.

You could have a sneak-based job quest (about 8 quests), but the main story will still have you running around as the warrior of light, fighting and killing eikons, and saving the day. There is no way to escape that reality unless you specifically create a separate sneaking story line and play style for the thief.

Considering we had a Thief that was the protagonist of a FF game and saved the world (Zidane), I don't think that's a bad thing.

[Eyvhokan]

Thief from FF1 evolved into Ninja so I think that's where it ends here as well I'm afraid.

[Tanathya]

The idea is very well thought out, and I'd love to see it implemented, even though they said time and again that rogues are thieves that were sanctioned. Too bad, because they wouldn't necessarily need a guild; DRK's aren't sanctioned and they don't have one (guild) either.

[Sandpark]

Hmm....

If we make THF as a branch from ROG, the main thing would really be establishing some sort of specialization for THF so that it stands out from NIN. For that, I'd suggest the buff to Throwing Dagger go to NIN (make it generate Ninki or something), while buffing Mug for THF. This is merely thematic, but I feel it would fit both jobs while also being callbacks to older FF games (where NIN's main gimmicks were Dual Wield and the Throw command). By the same token, Sneak Attack making a return as a THF-only skill would be a step in the right direction, specially since you have the Stealth Gauge.

I'm looking over your OP so that I can give better feedback, but there are some good foundation in there.

Finally someone interested in at least some version of thief.

The reason why I went with the dagger buff to thief is because ninja has the shuriken/katana and rogue/thief traditionally use daggers. However I do concede that Ninja is known for the throw command in the FF universe. I mainly added throwing to this concept because thief needs come kind of ranged or AoE attack and it wouldn't make sense at least for me unless it was bombs or traps.

I have a three way mode for mug to be altered. ESO has morphs which what my idea is kind of like except here the choice is not permanent.

Could you elaborate on how you would buff Mug?

Considering we had a Thief that was the protagonist of a FF game and saved the world (Zidane), I don't think that's a bad thing.

I do like Zidane and he played a huge role. But my favorite Thief is still Locke, though he would want to be called Treasure Hunter.

I think that depends on how you intend to use the class. If it were me designing it, THF would be a sort of less refined alternative to NIN. NIN train specific arts and have a method they follow to get things done. THF would be more like the guy that fights dirty and wins fights through agility, wit, and improvisation.

Provided we want to put the work in, I think that distinction has a lot of mileage.

Yes, this was why I included Cloud Of Dust and the meta of being more potent when debuffs are applied. To me the iconic image of a rogue or thief is a slightly dirtier version of Han Solo or Indiana Jones, kind of just winging it in a high fantasy setting.

Kind of a drunk, kind of aloof, kind of a dork, but still has a view of what is right or wrong and always gets the job done somehow. This job could potentially teeter the line of what is good or bad and maybe either way is kind of gray.

[Sandpark]

The thief (and the rogue) run into problems in a themepark MMO for the same reason that Red Mage and Bard cannot be true hybrid or support classes.

Such classes do not fit well into the constraints of the holy trinity needed for good dungeon and raid design. If the endgame was more of a sandbox, we could more easily see the appeal of a thief or rogue, instead of the assassin/ninja it currently is.

However, the truth is that you have to function either as a damage dealer or a support. And if you are planning a debuff job, your debuffs will, by necessity, be limited in their efficacy against bosses, primals, and all the fights that do actually matter.

Overall, it's not a bad idea, but I just don't see how the job itself will feel any different from the ninja. You could have a sneak-based job quest (about 8 quests), but the main story will still have you running around as the warrior of light, fighting and killing eikons, and saving the day. There is no way to escape that reality unless you specifically create a separate sneaking story line and play style for the thief.

I played Thief in XI which was a themepark and it worked fine there. Was a DPS with emnity management and a bonus Treasure Hunter trait.

But I don't want a DPS emnity manager here. I want a DPS/support.

ESO built a whole expansion around the Thief. Which I am not asking for here. But those job quest would add enough context if the writing is up to snuff and some actual effort is put into it. The best reason for playing multiple jobs other than trying new skills on new jobs or unique gear is getting a subtly different story per job. Which is what I love the FF mmos for.