Just realized something: FFXIV is a terrible DPS player's DREAM come true...

[BubblyBoar]

But here we have DPS that have no clear signs of when they are making mistakes in their play in their specific role (DPS) when simple dungeons are being failed, then fingers start being pointed at random people for that reason. One person who might be doing really great DPS will have the finger pointed at them because there's no way to check in-game to see who is causing the team to lose.

And like I said, just run a parser. It doesn't need to be in game. If they don't believe you, or ask for proof, they are just making excuses and don't want to get better. You can totally bullshit and just say you watched how they played and noticed they weren't playing as well. And if they refuse to get better, just kick them or leave the dungeon. A person like that doesn't want to get better. They already think they are great and will just make excuses. parser being in-game will only make them deny things even harder and make even more excuses. It's not going to solve anything.

Please stop acting like there are these magical reasonable players that need to see actual parsing data nd go "Oh, maybe I was bad, I'll try and be a good DPS now." Because those people are already trying or already parsing.

[Shurrikhan]

Please stop acting like there are these magical reasonable players that need to see actual parsing data nd go "Oh, maybe I was bad, I'll try and be a good DPS now." Because those people are already trying or already parsing.

I've run into some 20 of exactly those kinds of people. (Sadly that's about equal to how many I've seen say "how about I'll play how I like and you can deal with it" or have threatened to try to ban anyone who asked to shape up.) I've also seen people seek friends out to parse them on a dummy or over a dungeon run (surprisingly often, they're worried less about their fixed rotation than their number sense and general priorities, so to speak, which a longer run may bring more insight towards) because either they can't get theirs to work or are on PS3/4. There certainly are those players who at present are without parsers but can nonetheless make use of them. They're no huge crowd, but they're not mythical creatures.

[RichardButte]

Well, I'm definitely confused by how they insist on nearly every encounter having an enrage, yet not letting us get any indication of performance without using third party software.

This.

It's 100% contradictory.

Imagine trying to play as a healer and not being able to see the HP of your party members, instead having to guess who is injured and who isn't.

That's basically DPS as a role right now...

[Delily]

This.

It's 100% contradictory.

Imagine trying to play as a healer and not being able to see the HP of your party members, instead having to guess who is injured and who isn't.

That's basically DPS as a role right now...

That's why we have tools like Sky and Sea and The Circles of Answering.

[Kaurhz]

That's why we have tools like Sky and Sea and The Circles of Answering.

Both of which don't give any reasonable statistic. Sure it tells me if my rotation in general is correct and sufficient, but beating on a dummy, and beating on savage, and primals, whilst juggling mechanics is something entirely different, even with the over-inflated DPS check for passing the dummies.


This topic gives me like a dozen conflicting thoughts

[NintenPyjak64]

That's why we have tools like Sky and Sea and The Circles of Answering.

Go do SSS as a MNK. It's an awful way to gauge your gameplay because your "big attack" is locked behind total RNG, and Brotherhood is useless since you're solo. Looking at a raid scenario, a raid group is going to have 3-4 other people who will benefit from Brotherhood (both tanks, second melee and/or BRD/MCH), but their abilities will in turn give you more chakra, to do more Forbidden Chakras. DRG suffers from this too because of Dragon Sight, although you could give that to a chocobo, it's skewing your numbers by killing the dummy faster

If I wanted to gauge my MNK gameplay, I'll do it in actual raid content, where I can benefit more from Brotherhood and actually use high tier food/potions (why waste expensive raid consumables on a dummy?), AND have to deal with mechanics

Actually, I've heard they slow performance and increase latency, which is why it'd be nice for SE to have personal built in parsers because SE has said they HAVE DPS meters, they just don't make them available to players.

Oh yes, that's right: SE has and uses DPS meters to balance raid content, but the filthy plebe players aren't allowed to have them to know whether or not they're doing enough damage to CLEAR said raid content.

"FFXIV: Our raids have DPS checks, but we don't let you check your DPS!"

Exhibit A:


Sure it's just an alpha picture, but it doesn't change the fact that they use a debug version to test content, also iirc this is big man YoshiP himself showing off Primals

[BubblyBoar]

I've run into some 20 of exactly those kinds of people. (Sadly that's about equal to how many I've seen say "how about I'll play how I like and you can deal with it" or have threatened to try to ban anyone who asked to shape up.) I've also seen people seek friends out to parse them on a dummy or over a dungeon run (surprisingly often, they're worried less about their fixed rotation than their number sense and general priorities, so to speak, which a longer run may bring more insight towards) because either they can't get theirs to work or are on PS3/4. There certainly are those players who at present are without parsers but can nonetheless make use of them. They're no huge crowd, but they're not mythical creatures.

You seem to misunderstand what I said. I'm guessing you missed my ealier posts. Basically, those kinds of people are already seeking help. They didn't need to have a parser shoved in their face with actual numbers to want to improve. Someone told them they weren't doing great, so they got better. They didn't need the game literally telling them their exact numbers to get better. What we have now was enough. We know it's enough because you've literally just said so. There didn't need to be an in-game parser for that to happen. Likewise, I'm not denying the other type of person either. The one that doesn't want to improve and tells you to stuff it. An in-game parser isn't going to make them suddenly want to get better. Even if people like that actually see the number in front of their face, they won't improve. So again....these magical reasonable players that need to see actual parsing data in game and go "Oh, maybe I was bad, I'll be a good DPS now" don't exist. And the ones people claim to exist are trying already, without parsers in-game.

The only thing the parser in-game allows for is shoving your number into the face of people that don't care for them, good or bad.

[Shurrikhan]

Basically, those kinds of people are already seeking help.

Not always. I've many times had a friend inform someone who honestly thought that, say, Tornado Kicking at every possible occasion was good play, or didn't realize multi-DoTing was helpful for their Repertoire, and I've either been too engaged with healing, tanking, or otherwise making up for that lost DPS to notice. As soon as the friend has made any note of it, I've played enough of each to advise correction by typing between GCDs, but until then I wouldn't have figured to bother.

Or take someone who has a parser but is looking for advice. There it helps to see when their DPS isn't rising at expected rates (e.g. blowing Mage's too soon, not making use of multi-Flare, etc.). Those who know the class can estimate pretty clearly what is or is not being done by per-2s to per-3s rolling summaries, without having to watch their casts. That's one more useful tool, that also happens to be free (over sufficient samples) of misunderstanding.

The only thing the parser in-game allows for is shoving your number into the face of people that don't care for them, good or bad.

We're working under the assumption that the UI can't even be hidden? Otherwise, this is again not a change. For every person who'd be less afraid to reveal a number, there's another who no longer feels the need because everyone else has access to a parser.

Do I trust every player to be capable of following basic rules for interpretation (when you just screwed over the Monk's stacks, yes, his DPS will be lower relative to the duration of the fight; when you decide to chicken out of a whole pull after one of the DPS already popped CDs in preparation, yes, his DPS on the next will be reduced, and yes, gear makes a difference)? No. And I think there are plenty of opportunities to mitigate that, should SE put in a parser of its own. My personal preference as a performance index is a relative potency / second meter (preferably complete with battle log integration and sort and coverage analysis as you would find via FFlogs), because it nullifies internal DHit and Crit variance while taking all but a marginal contribution from secondary stats (unless thus adjusting the base) out of gear difference.

[BubblyBoar]

...

On the first point, a parser being in game wouldn't have changed anything. That person was willing to get better when advised. They didn't need a parser in game to do so. hey didn't need actual visible proof in game to see they needed to improve. Someone told them and they did. That's the point I'm getting at here. You keep bringing me examples of people getting better after they were told they could and I'm sitting here wondering why it keeps getting brought up as if you can't do that already?

[Shurrikhan]

On the first point, a parser being in game wouldn't have changed anything. That person was willing to get better when advised. They didn't need a parser in game to do so. hey didn't need actual visible proof in game to see they needed to improve. Someone told them and they did. That's the point I'm getting at here. You keep bringing me examples of people getting better after they were told they could and I'm sitting here wondering why it keeps getting brought up as if you can't do that already?

Because they were absolutely events triggered by a parser. Now, without one that could have simply occurred a few runs later, or the very next, but the fact the advice arrived when it did because there was far less effort required on the part of the improving-player-to-be's party members to notice that a problem was occurring. Their knowledge wasn't the issue; their attention and sense of urgency was, and each was supplied at a single glance by a parser.

I have never once said or even implied that self-improvement is impossible without a parser. I have said that it is a helpful tool, however large or small its margin in the hands of various players.

I guess to put it another way, I fail to see how the harm you suggest, if even existent, outweighs the boon, however small you might find it.

Maybe our experiences with "epeen waving" have just varied tremendously, as I've yet to see it occur even once. (I've seen friendly competition between DPS. I've enjoyed the same myself. But I have never seen anyone boasting about their numbers outside of their raid group following a particularly DPS-solid attempt or clear.) I have, on the other hand been threatened to be reported multiple times because I've said as a tank, "my bad, our DPS isn't high enough for a pull of that size; I'll trim back" when breaking in a quickly learning healer, or especially if one of the DPS made light of said healer when the matter was out of his or her hands; survival revolved around at least a couple mobs dying before I ran out of every single CD, and no amount of mana-burning heal spam can make up for that if the mobs are dropping at half their DF-average speed.

Now, perhaps that is biasing me; I'd honestly prefer that people grow a pair and not take an objective inference or rational compromise as personal vindication against them by a player who, I'm sorry to say, probably is not invested enough in them as a specific person to get any enjoyment out of insulting them, and I think plain information would help in that regard. If I can't make them understand anything outside of their tunnel vision, I'd like to at least be able to say, "Given the healer and I's gear and CDs, we'd have needed about xxxx output, in my experience spamming this dungeon with various groups, to get through that. If you don't feel comfortable making up that difference, I'm going to cut back so we don't die, especially now that my CDs are down," and they would have that number in front of them, everything out on the table so to speak. That sounds very much like a positive, helpful, and toxicity-reductive change to me, based on my experiences.

Half the time it feels like there's this ambiguous void, or wall of passive confrontation, by anyone who staunchly feels like they might have something to lose if anyone did know how they were doing just based on the damn stereotype. I've yet to see "parser discrimation" in the sense of people being weeded out based on their numbers without so much as a offer of support. I've seen reverse aplenty, where anyone who expects basic competency must somehow be elitist and parsing. And the funny thing is, you're not going to kill that boggie-man by actually finding a way to remove parsers completely. You only get rid of that my pulling those afraid of it out of their closets. Oh look, those are my performance indexes. Hmm. I'll do with that what I will. Not some terrifying, morally bankrupt, infringing, and masturbatory tool, but just... information.

So what exactly is the harm you're assuming here? Because I truly cannot see how it outweighs the benefits, whether in terms of convenience, fairness, or community impact.