SCH adlo and succor

[technole]

Yeah, SCH doesn't have MP issues. The points that Crein and I have mentioned is really the reason why. If you aren't living off Aetherflow aggressiveness and all the free healing that the kit offers, you aren't playing the job to it's potential. If that pink icon isn't on cool down most of the time you better have a good reason why. The Scholar only denies themselves more free healing the longer they let it sit there.

I've also not had any issue in Savage minimum ilevel progression since week one. I even mentioned how many times you'll end up using Succor in O4S ExDeath and Neo, and it won't be an issue because of all the MP you'll generate using Aetherflow skills quite often for mechanics.

Just some illogical posters that don't do any savage content like to come out and say "well you have another healer". Scholar free healing is the reason why the other healer doesn't have a large burden in raiding. You aren't being a good raid healer if you are making your partner do all the work, it's about being complimentary. Indom and Whispering Dawn have always been the bread-and-butter.

[Penthea]

Well whether someone thinks sch has mana issues or not one fact remains; its mana efficiency is very noticeably lower than whm and ast. So either sch is due some buffs or ast and whm are due some nerfs.

And a disclaimer before anyone gets any ideas: I still main sch and still think it is still viable, but presently sch demands a much more careful playstyle than whm and ast. There is definitely some mana efficiency imbalance among the three healers.

[Vyriah]

(...)

To be honnest, I think it's pointless to continue by that point.

You keep derailling into everything just to hammer your "u bad healer !" nail, it's pointless. You use out of context indirect quote it the complete opposite meaning and will validate some random dungeon playing guy to say in the next second that every you don't like just doesn't do raid as healer. But seriously, it grounding the number of people that just come here to tell everyone they don't know how to play just because it feel good for their ego.

[Silver-Strider]

Snip.

Let's assume for a second personal experience actually matters on the subject and that everyone has the exact same playing experience.
That would mean that all AST should be glued to Noct Sect because 1 person was able to solo heal O4S and that all ASTs should be as good as that person. Yeah, that seems 100% fair and reasonable.

Back in reality, we have issues because
A) People are still learning the class. The changes in SB made SCH play completely differently than it was in HW so people are still getting used to the changes, which have been fairly jarring to say the least.
B) Not everyone plays the same way. Bad Tanks that don't pop CDs, people that eat floor paint for breakfast, lunch and dinner, etc all mean that, even with SCH's more liberal use of Aetherflow abilities, you still only have 3 answers ever 45 seconds to those issues (outside Dissipation use). This is in the outright best case scenario if you haven't used skills like Bane or Miasma2+ED weaves to use up stacks prior to shit hitting the fan. SCH is discouraged to use their GCD abilities to heal because they cost an arm and a leg to do or are the lackluster heal of Physick.
C) Fairy abilities are clunky. Even with macros, the fairy just absolutely insists on finishing whatever it is doing before doing as you command and it makes the job just that much more difficult to play perfectly because you have to account for the stupidity of its AI on top of mechanics.

[technole]

A) People are still learning the class....
B) Not everyone plays the same way....
C) Fairy abilities are clunky....

Scholar really doesn't play that much differently , it's mainly been reeled-in from it's overpowered MP management, and it's free healing when it was always clearly #1 in that area among all healers since the job ever came out. That was also why minimum PIE builds were always considered best-in-slot. Making a relic? Absolutely no PIE in that weapon. The job could get away with practically almost no gear having PIE in Creator Savage, and still put up powerful HPS and DPS provided your raid parties were not error-prone. So even not being the slightest bit optimal, you'd get away with it or just add PIE somewhere for traps/messy parties. Aetherflow going from 20% to 10% now makes a little more aware of using the correct skills for the situation. But like some posters have also eluded to, you only need enough MP to "always be casting". I've had to train my bards previously that I didn't need mana song even when it looked like I'm super low of MP.

Practically going back to ARR it was Embrace/Whispering Dawn doing all the dungeon healing. Double/triple pulling a heavy dungeon pack in 4.0 in a 310 sync dungeon you'll have to play it using all your skills, but they gave us Fey Union which is really super-sayan for even the heaviest dungeon pulls and constant tank raid damage in the game. Which you didn't mention, and requires only aggressive Aetherflow build-up. It's once again, free. Oh you can pop Rouse+Whispering Dawn to get another tank regen before you pop Miss Super Sayan tether. That's two powerful regens, and now you got more Aetherflow in-case they dip into emergency range while you DPS down the trash. Easy game.

There are a few threads in this forum to explain and help force the fairy to stop what she is doing to do things like Whispering Dawn. Even Sustain had a purpose because she would immediately stop healing someone to heal herself. Most of the time that wasn't necessary as a Scholar because the most she probably had was a tank cleave and she lived through it without any more damage coming. But to say clunky fairy is about akin to saying Benediction going off on a dead player. It hasn't stopped anyone from playing pet jobs.

[Vyriah]

SCH don't need MP management, they had aether flow.

They trade their main ressource for a more restrictive but more powerful secondary one. It's not being OP, it's something that just plain work. Weak on demand spells vs stronger three every minute abilities. And for that, they didn't need piety and it was fine. They had their own BiS, their own playstyle.
What overpowered could even mean, seriously ? Did people make team of 8 SCH of slaughtered the game ? No, they didn't. SCH/AST was more optimised for standard composition fast run of fght you already now. That's it.

Was SCH mandatory to the game ? No it wasn't. Was bringing SCH to a party made the content significantly easier ? No it didn't. Every thing else is on the player base mentality.

Can't you get a clue about the fact that some people would kick WHM from parties for the exact reason you kick posting on that thread pop new way to spite on other SCH.
Just give it rest, you're not even making any sense.

[Silver-Strider]

Snip.

The difference between HW SCH and SB SCH is that SCH was nerfed on several fronts. Aetherflow being cut in half, the increase in cost to Adlo and Succor, and the fairy potency nerf are all factors that come into play here. As you just said, Embrace/Whispering Dawn was doing all the healing back in the day but as of now, that is NOT the case. You cannot let the fairy do everything and actually have to be more attentive of your playstyle, be more mindful of you MP, etc or else things will go south fast. I didn't mention any fairy ability, Fey Union included, because it has a long wind up time and needs to be built up to be used. It's clunky to use, which is the general point of my 3rd point. Not saying it's stopping people from playing pet classes, I'm saying it's stopping them from playing them EFFECTIVELY.

[Supersun]

Double/triple pulling a heavy dungeon pack in 4.0 in a 310 sync dungeon you'll have to play it using all your skills, but they gave us Fey Union which is really super-sayan for even the heaviest dungeon pulls and constant tank raid damage in the game. Which you didn't mention, and requires only aggressive Aetherflow build-up. It's once again, free. Oh you can pop Rouse+Whispering Dawn to get another tank regen before you pop Miss Super Sayan tether. That's two powerful regens, and now you got more Aetherflow in-case they dip into emergency range while you DPS down the trash. Easy game.

So if you are overgeared it works.

Yet, not everyone is overgeared, and classes shouldn't be built needing to be overgeared in mind.

I got a late start on SB so I'm only about i300 atm. Just using Whispering Dawn, Tether, and Aetherflow skills is definitely not enough to keep the tank alive during big pulls. Some Aldo spam is required.

And this is kind of the point. Scholar is fine so long as the healing requirements the job needs to do falls within their threshold of free healing. Scholar's free healing threshold is definitely a ton higher than every other healer (largely because of Whispering Dawn). Once you need to heal more than your free healing provides though it gets messy. In raids this is covered because the other healer covers that gap. There are times though that the Scholar himself needs to heal more than his free healing provides (usually due to bad players), and when this happens Scholar becomes trash tier where as the other 2 healers would be absolutely fine in the same spot.

Should Scholar's MP healing be as efficient as the other 2 classes? Of course not. I understand that because of how much free healing scholar has that their MP efficiency should be lower than the other two...but not by THIS much. I mean 50% higher costs, lower MP regen, and lower potency than White Mage? The difference in free healing between the jobs isn't THAT big (it's mainly whispering dawn, everything else Scholar has there's an equivalent).