Why healing is broken and terrible, and how to fix it...

[SDaemon]

Uh, WoW world first clears typically don't last more than a day either.

Um...what? WoW world first clears take on average significantly longer than anything FFXIV has ever released. I can actually keep up on and watch WoW's progression day to day. FFXIV's world first race usually ends before I can even get off work.

[Remilia_Nightfall]

snip

That's probably because the FFXIV playerbase starts to immediately whine if a fight is not clearable the very same day it is released. A3S anyone?

To give my 2 cents to the OP's points, I do not believe healing to be "guesswork". Assuming that Savage is the only content where such discussions matter (as in all other content you can play like a braindead monkey regardless of your role and still be successful), once the entire group learns a particular fight there should be no guesswork at all. As a healer you know exactly when, how and how much every single person is going to receive damage. Your "rotation", if you want to call it like that, is the actual "boss" rotation of the damage the party is forced to receive. Optimise your buttons according to this rotation and you optimise your healer.


Fun thing - while DPS rotation does not change between encounters (there is always only "one" optimal rotation to maximise DPS), this "healer rotation" changes with every encounter.


I find it more fun.

[RichardButte]

He made this thread first in the healer section and (similar to what is happening here) people disagreed with his stance quite drastically

I suggest you go have another look at that thread because you're very obviously remembering it wrong:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/340124-What-I-ve-realized-about-healing-in-XIV...

Most of the people in that thread agreed on some level. You were the outlier there.

The key flaw with THIS thread was that the title is too incendiary, which prompted many people to not even read the actual OP and instead just become defensive that I was attacking their role of choice.

As some said earlier, there's definitely a discussion to have about healing and the way it tends to flow in this game, but I made the title too clickbaity.

If a thread is going to get any attention at all on the general forums, it needs to have somewhat of an eye-grabbing title, but I went overboard here.

Assuming that Savage is the only content where such discussions matter

Um, no?

DPS rotations may not change, but the rotations are fun and engaging, and it's actually everywhere BUT Savage that healers are the most boring.

DPS always have something to shoot for, in terms of optimizing their rotations to do more damage. Tanks can somewhat do the same, but they also always have their basic rotation to be going through.

It's only healers that are left with no choice but to DPS if they want to have anything to do at ALL, and healer DPS is generally a snooze.

[Snow_Princess]

I suggest you go have another look at that thread because you're very obviously remembering it wrong:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ling-in-XIV...

Most of the people in that thread agreed on some level. You were the outlier there.

The key flaw with THIS thread was that the title is too incendiary, which prompted many people to not even read the actual OP and instead just become defensive that I was attacking their role of choice.

As some said earlier, there's definitely a discussion to have about healing and the way it tends to flow in this game, but I made the title too clickbaity.

If a thread is going to get any attention at all on the general forums, it needs to have somewhat of an eye-grabbing title, but I went overboard here.



Um, no?

DPS rotations may not change, but the rotations are fun and engaging, and it's actually everywhere BUT Savage that healers are the most boring.

DPS always have something to shoot for, in terms of optimizing their rotations to do more damage. Tanks can somewhat do the same, but they also always have their basic rotation to be going through.

It's only healers that are left with no choice but to DPS if they want to have anything to do at ALL, and healer DPS is generally a snooze.

No, the reason is the presentation, and ill tell you the exact problem why you got different reactions:

..... or conserve mana in case a DPS screws up and gets hit by an AoE.
................ so you can go back to deciding to conserve mana or pushing a few DPS buttons.

BTW, you have an equal chance of being yelled at for DPSing or NOT DPSing, because maybe no one gets hit and you should've been DPSing the entire time, or maybe several people will get hit (even due to lag) and you're going to go OOM because you DPSed!

You have no way of knowing which was the right answer until after the fight. Have fun, healers!

Angry sarcasm aside, it all boils down to how damage is dealt to players in this game and how potent healing spells are (ie one oGCD heals 50%+ of a tank's HP so we can get right back to DPSing).

Damage either comes out in a trickle, or a deluge. Compare this to other MMOs where tanks take steady damage that healers need to constantly be healing through "maintenance rotations" that allow the healer to make interesting and engaging decisions on how they want to spend resources.
.............. or standing there to regenerate mana. This is why I gave up my level 70 AST: once I had all of the cardplay down to muscle memory, it became clear just how bland and uninteresting healing is.

The thread you linked, or made in the healer section was basically "This means that, as a healer, I either have no healing to do or TONS of healing to do, and the end result is that, yes, healers get pestered about doing DPS, which I don't mind doing, except that healer DPS is boring AF."

This IS TRUE, what is NOT TRUE is what you said for this thread. You do not have mp problems in this game, unless very extreme cases with tanks not using CDs + a lot of dodge fail + raises. So when you say you have mp problems on AST people question if you know how play healer at all. The way people see this thread is basically showing how you can't handle healing and get good. Also you point out or try claim in this thread that no one can predict the spike damage, something that is also not true. If you play healer enough you learn if people will take axess damage and if you need to heal more (a skill more needed more with clearic stance because of this issue: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ight-rotations ... ) ironically another thread you made that is perfectly agreeable.

But ya the reason of the different reaction is the different presentation, you sound like you have no idea what your talking about to this one. To people that are career healers, all "issues" presented here in this thread are non-existent to career healers due to improved foresight over those with less experience.

Case and point, recently I did a mega pull in the first SB DF, level 61, starting to level my pld in SB content. I did the typical megapull with caster LB. However things where dying really slowly and tbh I am shocked we did not wipe, me and healer had to do some extra work but there was no MP issues... (The BLM was new plus vastly undergeared) You rarely ever have mp issues in this game, the only way to have mp issues is to VASTLY overheal like spamming cure III/medcia II without anything to heal, over spaning holy (I think this is the only way to DPS and go OOM) , over casting Adloquium/ succor, and I got no clue how to make AST go oom unless its from mass raises or not paying attention where you never lucid. and ofc mass raises.. 3600 for a raise wth is with that anyway? =.=

It is rare to see a healer get "pestered" for doing dps or not dps, yes both can happen but they are rare. I think being pestered for healing dps is more trolling then anything.

[RichardButte]

You do not have mp problems in this game, unless very extreme cases with tanks not using CDs + a lot of dodge fail + raises.

Yes, and these cases are less "extreme" than you might think.

The issues I'm describing aren't the type you'd face with static groups, but they're real and can happen often enough in the DF.

And ultimately, that's why I find healing too polarizing: generally speaking, you're either bored out of your skull with nothing to do but DPS, or someone in the group is ritualistically standing in the bad and you're going OOM from ressing them.

I'd like a middle ground, and I'd ideally prefer to spend more time healing a steady stream of damage than letting a regen tick on the tank while I perform a very simple DPS rotation.

And you don't even need to look outside of XIV to find fun and interesting class designs: even the DPS classes that stink on parsers have fun and engaging playstyles that always offer something to do.

If the healers in this game played on the same engagement level the DPS, I'd have no issue with healing.

After observing these so called healers in the wild, and captivity I can say the only things I see them struggle with is solo content. If you would like to see how bad it is then try leveling a fresh character as a healer with none of your max character help such as full set of crafted hq or even decent gear in every slot. Then do the same as a DPS or Tank. The difference is disgusting. It shouldn't take a healer 3 times as long to do a solo task as everyone else because we want more people to play healer and feel good about it. It would be nice if they had a buff for solo(none dungeon/trial) damage to allow them to complete their missions and quests with a more reasonable degree of ease. But hey, That's just a theory.... A BALANCE THEORY! *ducks barrage of shoes to the head*

It's not the biggest of my complaints, but yeah, leveling a healer without chain queuing dungeons is sluggish, to be sure (MSQ solo battles tend to draaaag with a healer as well).

The entire Mythic tier actually took closer to three weeks - released June 27th, wasn't cleared until Method got it on July 17th, 20 days later. Method was the world first, yeah? Their healers were frickin' bongos; I really enjoyed watching their clear vid. I have a lot of room to improve in that game.

BTW, Mythic Tomb was 9 bosses - in FFXIV terms, that means it would have been cleared by the third day, not nearly three weeks later. XIV brings its own stuff to the table, but I'm not sure you'd find many who think it does raiding better than World of Warcraft.

I'm guessing that in SSavage they're finally just going to say, "Yes, healers will NEED to DPS. Please look forward to it." because they can't keep straddling the fence on this...

[Snow_Princess]

Yes, and these cases are less "extreme" than you might think.

The issues I'm describing aren't the type you'd face with static groups, but they're real and can happen often enough in the DF.

And ultimately, that's why I find healing too polarizing: generally speaking, you're either bored out of your skull with nothing to do but DPS, or someone in the group is ritualistically standing in the bad and you're going OOM from ressing them.

I'd like a middle ground, and I'd ideally prefer to spend more time healing.

And you don't even need to look outside of XIV to find fun and interesting class designs: even the DPS classes that stink on parsers have fun and engaging playstyles that always offer something to do.

If the healers in this game played on the same engagement level the DPS, I'd have no issue with healing.



It's not the biggest of my complaints, but yeah, leveling a healer without chain queuing dungeons is sluggish, to be sure (MSQ solo battles tend to draaaag with a healer as well).



I'm guessing that in SSavage they're finally just going to say, "Yes, healers will NEED to DPS. Please look forward to it." because they can't keep straddling the fence on this...

That is fine but you REALLY needed to word the thread better, that is why you got the replies as you did.

Also I do not static, and if you think it is bad now (even just at times) you should of tried being a new healer at late 2.0, that period was more abusive to healers then anything after it or anything I experienced in a MNO, it was sicking. SE addressed it by pulling huge mega pull blockers in DFs. It is also strange to me no one attempts those pulls during hw or even SB despite having more stats in those DFs then during 50 cap. (I do 50/60 roulette for when I have to do the 60-61 bridge, not ONCE did I see those pulls attempted)

This is where I think it is less of a game issue, if people are taking too much damage I speak up. I HATED!! having ast my first in SB in 67+ DFs esp if it was a **** war mass pulling and poping Deliverance in the middle of mass group. This is not a game issue and more of a habit issue of being too used of face rolling everything. Even then there was no MP ISSUE!!! it was more of a tank, .. or rather a DPS thinking they are a tank, taking more damage then I can heal even using all my CDs such as light speed and Essential Dignity. Sure I wish war and tanking be a bit more ... lowering skill gap proof .. and I did write a post long ago on such a thing. The only time you can legitimately run out of MP if you have 2 dps so bad while being able keep up a mp sink tank. If that is more what you are referring to, it is less a healing issue and more of "We should have better tutorials to lessen the skill gap" Because as much as SE wanted to attempt that with the new graphics, it did not succeed in that goal. You really need to get more experience and see what your talking about is a skill issue with tanks, a skill issue with proper rotations of dps, dodging bad or a combo of.

This is where knowing the game more comes into play. You keep leaving other factors out and blame healing problems only. JUST looking at healing problems, the only thing that truly exists is the burst nature.. DPS > burst heal > DPS > burst heal, but the thing is ALL HEALING JOBS have tools to deal with burst damage, divine Benson, Benediction, Tetragrammaton, Essential Dignity, Aspected Benefic, light-speed + x heal, swiftcast + x whatever, Lustrate, Indomitability, Dissipation, Excogitation, Aetherpact and a bit lesser extent, Sacred Soil, Assize, Asylum, Plenary Indulgence, and Earthly Star. For Earthly Star you can do unreal things with that, if you know the fights really well and know how time that. If you know something big is coming you got tools such as succor, noct-Aspected Helios, Collective Unconscious, Sacred Soil, Asylum, Excogitation, Aetherpact... (I think I got everything, and yes I am aware i repeated a few abilities for different uses)This is where the git gud aspect comes into play and learning when you may need to burst heal and knowing when you can dps. For example, some fights have big aoe burst > nothing to heal down time> this is a Emergency Tactics Succor/ medica II > dps > , or Aspected Helios. However something like A1N you might wanna keep Indomitability handy for the 1 hp drop, especially if you are being observant and do not trust your co healer. usually I Indomitability and succor and let the other healer do the rest and go back to DPSing. I guess you can say the fun comes from trying to take a challenge of having the most DPS uptime as you can as you use your different healing tools at the correct times to achieve such a goal.

The point is, your complaints here is more about being a better healer or having better skill for the average player, then healing it self (other then not liking the small healing > burst style) I find it hard to belive you are running out of mp with using all your CDs correctly, do you take Lucid Dreaming and Largesse for cross role? you can pair that up with Synastry and with noct aspect, your dropping a huge **** shield, meaning less heals being cast, more uptime on dps and less mp used.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

That is DECIDEDLY untrue.

Compare these world firsts to when the content released for the tier:
http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/163...rld_first_list

The fastest I recall happening recently was Mythic Emeral Dream which took about a week. Deltascape Savage was cleared the very same day.

I stand corrected then. I swore hearing WoW raids had been considerably reduced in their difficulty similar to FFXIV. Granted, their respective tiers are expected to last longer since they won't be another until the following expansion but fair enough.

That's probably because the FFXIV playerbase starts to immediately whine if a fight is not clearable the very same day it is released. A3S anyone?

Actually, A4S was more the issue because many perceived it a boring fight. Likewise, a major complaint with Gordias wasn't the difficulty per se but the gear lock. Living Liquid, and especially Manipulatior, were literally impossible to finish no matter what you did. Flawless DPS performance? Wipe. You needed weapon upgrades to even scratch those DPS checks. Personally, I don't find that type of difficulty fun since it's a complete waste of my time. I could push the job to its absolute limits and would fail regardless. May as well wait 3-5 weeks when I have tomestome and a tier 1 accessory.

[RichardButte]

I stand corrected then. I swore hearing WoW raids had been considerably reduced in their difficulty similar to FFXIV. Granted, their respective tiers are expected to last longer since they won't be another until the following expansion but fair enough.

You might've been hearing about WoW raids going to a "4 tier" system, which is LFR (duty finder raids), Normal, Heroic, and Mythic. It used to be LFR, Flex, Normal, Heroic, but they shifted the titles around and made Mythic require 20 people.

Or you might've heard about Emerald Nightmare which was the first raid of the xpac but WAS beaten very quickly by WoW's standards.

Either way, no worries because there can be a lot of confusing info coming from the WoW community.

I just hope SSavage takes a while to beat because it'd be nice for XIV to earn some more "street cred" on that subject. Even if players will never actually raid SSavage, they tend to like knowing that they'll never want for challenge in an MMO.

Thinking about it now, the key difference between XIV's raiding and WoW's is probably this:

WoW: Damage comes out at a steady pace and needs to be healed constantly, healers don't contribute any significant DPS (unless that's how they heal). Some damage is avoidable but damage that could've been avoided is often immediately lethal. Most encounters are gear-checks, where healers will simply need to heal X unavoidable damage in Y seconds or players will start dying.

XIV: Damage comes out in spikes but most of it can be avoided, healers can contribute ~50-75% of a full DPS' damage. Healer DPS is supposedly not factored into balancing raid encounters (though some say it must be on certain savage fights).

The real key is that healers almost ALWAYS have healing to do in WoW. It's structured very differently in XIV.

[Kazrah]

The real key is that healers almost ALWAYS have healing to do in WoW. It's structured very differently in XIV.

That doesn't mean that the system's broken. It just means that the system is different, which is a good thing for people who like having a healing style that isn't like any other major MMORPG.

[RichardButte]

That doesn't mean that the system's broken. It just means that the system is different

XIV's healing isn't broken because it's different from WoW's healing.

XIV's healing is broken because healers spend more time DPSing than healing.

Imagine you're an artist (because you love making art). One day, you get hired by a graphic design firm.

However, on your first day of work, they only give you one hour worth of artwork to create. After that, they tell you that they don't have any more work for you, but that they instead want you to go clean the dishes in the cafeteria.

And so it goes, day after day: you go in, do an hour of the actual work you have passion for, then get relegated to doing dishes in the cafeteria for the remaining 7 hours of your shift. You realize that this isn't what you WANT to do, because you didn't apply to be a dishwasher, yet that's exactly what you've become.

This is how I feel about healing in XIV: I wanted to HEAL, but I inevitably spend the majority of my time DPSing because that's all there is to do.

So, I did the smart thing and rerolled DPS. I figure if the game is going to have me DPSing most of the time anyway, I may as well be doing it on a class with an interesting and engaging rotation. /shrug

The mileage of others may vary, I suppose, but when an artist spends 1 hour doing artwork and then 7 doing dishes, they're a dishwasher in the eyes of that company. I call healing broken not because healing itself doesn't work (it actually works TOO well), but because classes labeled as "healers" spend the majority of their time performing the actions meant for another role.

I find it hard to belive you are running out of mp with using all your CDs correctly

I rarely run out of MP, but if I do, it's because I was DPSing on what I thought would be a smooth run and everything very suddenly goes to crap.

But again, it's not even me running out of MP that's the problem. Most of the time, the issue is that I'm simply bored and DPSing when I rolled a class that was supposed to heal.