5.0 Beastmaster: keep it fierce please

[Shippuu]

BST wearing heavy armor doesn't make much more sense if you wanna talk about itemization ...

Except that it does? Many times BST has been depicted in heavier armor, and the idea of a wild beast tamer wearing heavy furs and bone armor is entirely in-line with their visual identity.



Armor such as this would be completely fitting for Beastmaster and can definitely fall under the category of Fending.

Was talking ability wise anyway, DNC makes much more sense as a tank than BST if you refer to FFXI

Name a single Job that was in FFXI that plays the same or has the exact same abilities as it does in FFXIV. If you want FFXI's dancers, go play FFXI. If dancer ever gets added to 14 it will be nothing like it was in XI so your example is entirely pointless.

While BST would add ... what ? A reskinned Titan Egi that would tank for you while you use axe skills and feed him with Zeta biscuits ?

Hilarious you dismiss Beastmaster as being incapable of anything unique yet sing Dancer's praises as being rife with opportunity. You clearly show a lack of creativity if you think that's the case. I can think of a simple concept alone that would make a Beastmaster tank leagues more interesting than Dancer could ever be, and that's the notion of a mounted Tank. A fighter who does battle while atop a powerful beast. It's a common fantasy trope but one that would be incredibly unique within the makeup of the game's existing jobs.

[MercureXI]

snap

So you'd have a dude on a pet, tanking ... ok ...

And ? oh you were finished ... ?


Again, I was talking about GAMEPLAY and you insist on posting artworks to counter that ?

Hmmmm

While I agree AGAIN that itemization would be a problem (they faced the same problem many times in XI, at some point, you gotta create stuff anyway ... BRD was the only job to use DEX stuff at first, yet they created it anyway), DNC and its abilities from XI could be very unique AND easy to translate into XIV, from haste/drain/aspir sambas up to its stances (saber and fan), and even violent flourish as its job stun / waltz for heals à la PLD / steps for debuffs utility for the group ... and so on ...

Completely the opposite of XI's BST ... which would need TONS of changes to even fit in XIV ... not to mention transition into a tank and give him unique abilities ... especially hard if you wanna "group" both the bst and its pet ! ! !

I could see BST as a DPS ... maybe ... but as a full blown tank ? Would need a LOT of changes ...

[Shippuu]

I was talking about GAMEPLAY

Gameplay is not inherently tied to any particular job. The mechanics a Paladin has can be put onto a Warrior, the mechanics a Samurai has can be put onto a Dragoon. They aren't married to the job's identity in any way. Name one GAMEPLAY mechanic that only a dancer could fulfill. Because I can guarantee whatever you think you can come up with, will be easily able to be put on any job.

DNC and its abilities from XI could be very unique AND easy to translate into XIV

Except they won't, because XIV is not XI and XI is not XIV. None of the other returning jobs kept their XI kits, what makes you think they'd do so with Dancer? Because they wouldn't.

haste/drain/aspir

AST already has haste. Every DPS has some form of Lifesteal that's the same as drain. Aspir has little use because every job that uses MP has little to no MP problems, it would be a worse version of the existing support roles skills such as Refresh. Not to mention, putting such utility onto a tank creates significant balancing issues and could lead to it being a must pick.

Even then, none of those you mentioned are required to be on a dancer outside of the name alone. Any job could have a haste, or refresh, a heal, debuffs etc.

Completely the opposite of XI's BST ... which would need TONS of changes to even fit in XIV

GOOD. Because again FFXIV =/= FFXI. It is not FFXI-2. It is it's own game and it won't copy 1:1 a job from another game.

I could see BST as a DPS ... maybe ... but as a full blown tank ? Would need a LOT of changes ...

Then the lack of creativity is your problem. But that's not surprising since all you can seem to do is repeat "Make this FFXI job the same thing in FFXIV."

[MercureXI]

snap

Oh, XI is not XIV ? Really ... Thanks for the heads up bro !

Only saying that it would need a lot less work and it would be a LOT easier to convert DNC into a tank (it basically has all the abilities / stances / etc already set, just need to tweak minor details) than converting BST into one.

Where exactly did I say that ONLY DNC could fulfill a mechanic ?

Lack of understanding is YOUR problem it seems ...

Never said "make it the same" (duh !), but more like "it's way easier to transition the job" ... because, newsflash, they don't create "existing jobs from past FFs" in XIV from the ground up ...


Anyway :

I have nothing against BST being back, just think that making BST a tank would require a lot of creativity and a lot of changes, while making it a DPS, would be way easier and maybe also a lot more fun (go crazy with attack animations for the pet)
Though I agree they could use the old "hate transfer" onto pet ability and the master buffing / healing its pet as a way for it to tank and look good doing so.

[Shippuu]

Oh, XI is not XIV ? Really ... Thanks for the heads up bro !

Only saying that it would need a lot less work and it would be a LOT easier to convert DNC into a tank (it basically has all the abilities / stances / etc already set, just need to tweak minor details) than converting BST into one.

You'd have to excuse people for thinking you want it to be the same because that's exactly what you've been saying. For the third time, none of the jobs in ffxiv takes their kits from from ffxi. NONE. So it doesn't matter in the slightest what a job has in ffxi, because it absolutely won't have it in ffxiv. Where was ffxi's red mage's verstone? Veraero? Fleche? Corps a corps? Where was ffxi's samurai's midare setsugekka? Where is ffxi's black mage's Astral fire and Umbral ice? Where is ffxi's white mage's lillies? Tetragrammaton? Asylum? Medica?

It absolutely is not easier to convert dancer into a tank for the pure itemization reason alone. It cannot wear existing tank gear

Never said "make it the same" (duh !),

Except that's pretty much your entire argument that it'd be easier to take the abilities (of which you specifically mentioned multiple) and transplant them into ffxiv. Which they haven't done, nor will do.

but more like "it's way easier to transition the job" ...

Yes, because putting in a tank job that doesn't wear tank gear is the epitome of "easy". You're delusional.

Because, newsflash, they don't create "existing jobs from past FFs" in XIV from the ground up ...

I think it's you who needs the "newsflash" because that is exactly what they do .

Samurai is almost nothing like any past iteration of the job in Final fantasy games. Red mage is drastically different from its previous iterations. Machinist, dark knight, astrologian, summoner, ninja, black mage, bard, monk, dragoon, warrior, paladin, scholar, white mage. All of the jobs were absolutely built from the ground up. At most they have a small handful of abilities or spells that are persistent through final fantasy games, but even those are often drastically changed in function such as souleater. Etc. Samurai is one of the bigger ones, as almost none of its kit has been present in past iterations.

Though I agree they could use the old "hate transfer" onto pet ability and the master buffing / healing its pet as a way for it to tank and look good doing so.

There are multiple reasons this cannot work mechanically. If a beastmaster tanks the pet cannot perform the role of the tank, period. And even if the pet doesn't actually tank there's still a handful of problems that arise by having the pet be alongside them. Having the beastmaster mounted on the pet and them acting as a single target is the easiest implementation of having it fulfill the tank role.

[MercureXI]

snip

Holy hell ...

1) Where did I say that I wanted it to be EXACTLY the same ? (please quote me, I dare you)

2) Jobs sure are a lot different in XIV, and I never said that they remained unchanged. But they still never were built from the ground up : Red Mage still is built upon the principle that you should both be melee / caster (which failed in XI though), Monk is pure melee and retained some of his abilities (more melee speed as you level up, etc), Dragoon retained part of his trademark skills (jumps etc), etc etc ...

Sure, none plays the same (duh), but they, more or less, have the same intended role.

But that never was my point anyway, if you read my post (?) : I only said that it would be very easy to bring DNC as a tank (skillset and gameplay wise) in XIV.

Itemization, I already agreed it would be a problem (but hey, bring it up again, so that I can agree more ?).

[Shippuu]

Holy hell ...

1) Where did I say that I wanted it to be EXACTLY the same ? (please quote me, I dare you)

I never claimed to say you wanted it to be exactly the same, but you absolutely did and continue to talk about transplanting specific abilities and mechanics from XI into XIV.

2) Jobs sure are a lot different in XIV, and I never said that they remained unchanged. But they still never were built from the ground up :

Except that yes, they are still built from the ground up. Having a base theme or motif to go off of is not designing detailed abilities and mechanics. Nor is having a few iconic visual abilities such as jump, as even those abilities are not immune to be changed entirely, I've already given a prime example with souleater, one of dark knight's most iconic ability is entirely different to how it's ever been before, aND that's not even going into the issue of how much dark knight was changed to make it into the tank it is now.

Sure, none plays the same (duh), but they, more or less, have the same intended role.

Except for when they dont. See: Dark Knight. Or how about Ninja, which was a tank in ffxi with consumable items, absolutely nothing like it is in ffxiv. That's not even touching how there isn't defined trinity roles in classic rpg final fantasy games, meaning exceptions will always be made in order to fit the jobs into strict roles.

But that never was my point anyway, if you read my post (?) : I only said that it would be very easy to bring DNC as a tank (skillset and gameplay wise) in XIV.

No, you initially said it would simply be the easiest to make into a tank (which is factually untrue) then you moved the goalposts to skills and gameplay, of which you are also wrong because we established that gameplay is not strictly tied to any job. Whatever skills you think would make dancer a good tank can be instantly repackaged onto any job. Bard already has aura buffs and debuffs, it wouldn't be anything that is unique to dancer, and isn't something that any other job couldn't also have.

Because of this, any potential job is just as easy to add from a gameplay and abilities wise.

Itemization, I already agreed it would be a problem (but hey, bring it up again, so that I can agree more ?).

And yet you still use a broad term of dancer being the easiest job to implement as a tank despite this very major thing that completely eliminates it from being any semblance of easy.

[MagiusNecros]

GOOD. Because again FFXIV =/= FFXI. It is not FFXI-2. It is it's own game and it won't copy 1:1 a job from another game.

Or just rip off a class from WoW instead. Just like Arcanist was a copypaste of affliction warlock.

[Duelle]

So you'd have a dude on a pet, tanking ... ok ...

There's a whole conversation that could be had on that. There's two approaches available for BST as a tank. One would be similar to how SCH is built with the pet serving some mitigation function. The other would be the BST riding their pet into battle as the "tank stance", combining the stats of both. I'm partial to the latter, though the low hanging fruit of why that wouldn't work is due to Roegadyn and how huge they'd be riding on top of a wolf/bear/turtle. Imagine a party with a SMN that has summoned Bahamut and the tank being a roegadyn BST riding a bear; you'd probably be able to see very little of what's going on.

The former runs into issues of pet responsiveness and how the current system could screw over a BST tanking when trying to mitigate a tank buster or high-damage phase.

I won't dent that it would take work to make BST a reality, but that's what the devs get paid for. Using XI as a template is not a good idea, since XI's BST was a mess by design and didn't have much that made it stand out aside from charm and jug pets.

On DNC: First, here.

Second, a lot of the FFXI stuff would need to be retooled for it to work here. Fan Dance would most likely be a defensive cooldown rather than a stance. Steps could go either way as debuffs or as buffs that give the DNC an advantage over whatever it is they're tanking. And I agree that Healing Waltz would be a no-brainer in terms of self healing.

[MercureXI]

snap

Yeah good luck pinpointing safe spots during huge AoEs with a huge pet covering the area

But I like the idea of having BST back in XIV anyway, just think tanking might be a harder transition than dps, since you could be way more creative with "attacks" using its pet if you focus on the damage dealing component.


About Fan Dance, it could just be "yet another" damage down stance, since the actual skill in XI was kinda paired with Utsusemi, and XIV having no evasion-tank (yet), that could be hard to work with it ... But a cooldown could work too of course ...