Healer & Tank DPS (WoW vs FFXIV)

[Remedi]

I repeat samey because you have a basic toolkit to not be a burden in the most cases, which is the same for wow too, but they have different quirks to them when played to their fullest and lest not to forget, wow has no pet healer class either.

edit: btw remember when druids could only casts hots? that was not that great

[loreleidiangelo]

I repeat samey because you have a basic toolkit to not be a burden in the most cases, which is the same for wow too, but they have different quirks to them when played to their fullest and lest not to forget, wow has no pet healer class either.

edit: btw remember when druids could only casts hots? that was not that great

SCH's fairy is basically the heals that a Disc Priest does via Atonement, tbh. It's more usable insofar that it has a great extra kit, but Embrace heals for about what Shadow Word: Pain heals on an Atoned tank in WoW.

Either way, my complaint isn't that XIV healers have "a basic toolkit", it's that they have a TON of overlap in their cooldowns and abilities that makes them great picks for any situation. There's nothing inherently wrong about that, so no need to be defensive, but it IS homogenization in the name of "balance". Every healer has answers to single target burst healing, oGCD healing, AOE sustain healing, mana management, etc... They don't have any particular strengths or weaknesses except what players in this game classify as "utility" (which is mostly just "any ability that isn't a healing one or a DPS one"). That's why AST was targeted out for almost all of 3.x - the devs tried to make a scenario where AST DIDN'T have the answers for heavy damage scenarios in order to make their party buffs have some kind of tradeoff, but healers in XIV were so spoiled already with WHM being a powerhouse and SCH being given a bunch of WHM tools in Heavensward so no one bothered to try to make it work, they just hollered for AST to get the same level of healing as the other two. Then when that happened, AST dominated the raid scene because there was no counterbalance to its insanely good utility.

I just think that WoW doesn't have that much of the same problem, likely because of how their damage in raids comes out and how the healers are designed. Holy Pally doesn't have an answer to redonk back-to-back AOEs, but they make great tank healers because of stuff like Blessing and Lay on Hands. Disc Priest doesn't have an answer for constant AOE damage either, but has pretty good tank shielding/healing too and has the bonus of doing moderately decent damage too. Resto Shaman doesn't have an answer to mana problems, and Druid doesn't have an answer to any sort of burst healing requirements whatsoever, but those two classes are pretty good at raid healing, just in their own unique way (Shamans through powerhousing, Druids through consistency). To be honest, healers like Disc Priest and Holy Paladin would never have a space in FFXIV content above casual dungeons (maybe 24-man raids), because this game is pretty much all about the health-spiking unavoidable AOEs, and damage on the tanks tend to come in the form of infrequent low-damage autos and easily mitigated tank busters, which makes single-target sustain a lot more valuable than single-target burst healing, which is those two class' niche.

[Remedi]

SCH's fairy is basically the heals that a Disc Priest does via Atonement, tbh. It's more usable insofar that it has a great extra kit, but Embrace heals for about what Shadow Word: Pain heals on an Atoned tank in WoW.

Either way, my complaint isn't that XIV healers have "a basic toolkit", it's that they have a TON of overlap in their cooldowns and abilities that makes them great picks for any situation. There's nothing inherently wrong about that, so no need to be defensive, but it IS homogenization in the name of "balance". Every healer has answers to single target burst healing, oGCD healing, AOE sustain healing, mana management, etc... They don't have any particular strengths or weaknesses except what players in this game classify as "utility" (which is mostly just "any ability that isn't a healing one or a DPS one"). That's why AST was targeted out for almost all of 3.x - the devs tried to make a scenario where AST DIDN'T have the answers for heavy damage scenarios in order to make their party buffs have some kind of tradeoff, but healers in XIV were so spoiled already with WHM being a powerhouse and SCH being given a bunch of WHM tools in Heavensward so no one bothered to try to make it work, they just hollered for AST to get the same level of healing as the other two. Then when that happened, AST dominated the raid scene because there was no counterbalance to its insanely good utility.

I just think that WoW doesn't have that much of the same problem, likely because of how their damage in raids comes out and how the healers are designed. Holy Pally doesn't have an answer to redonk back-to-back AOEs, but they make great tank healers because of stuff like Blessing and Lay on Hands. Disc Priest doesn't have an answer for constant AOE damage either, but has pretty good tank shielding/healing too and has the bonus of doing moderately decent damage too. Resto Shaman doesn't have an answer to mana problems, and Druid doesn't have an answer to any sort of burst healing requirements whatsoever, but those two classes are pretty good at raid healing, just in their own unique way (Shamans through powerhousing, Druids through consistency). To be honest, healers like Disc Priest and Holy Paladin would never have a space in FFXIV content above casual dungeons (maybe 24-man raids), because this game is pretty much all about the health-spiking unavoidable AOEs, and damage on the tanks tend to come in the form of infrequent low-damage autos and easily mitigated tank busters, which makes single-target sustain a lot more valuable than single-target burst healing, which is those two class' niche.

I think you should go back and watch everything wow has right now because some of your infos are outdated

[loreleidiangelo]

I think you should go back and watch everything wow has right now because some of your infos are outdated

You're not providing me with specific examples as to HOW my information is outdated, and couldn't even remember that Disc Priest's "healing through damage" passive was called Atonement, yet I'm the one who hasn't played WoW of late? Meanwhile I'm citing spell names, their cooldowns, giving specific combat examples of where each healer excels...whatever though.

I freely admit, the last thing I raided was Emerald Nightmare about 8 months ago, so maybe healers HAVE had a ton of changes and they're all one-size-fits-all à la FFXIV now. But when you won't give me specifics, instead focusing on "Disc isn't a shield healer because Atonement" pedantry and just telling me I'm wrong without any rebuttal using actual game info, it makes me disinclined to believe you.

Do Resto Druids have burst healing outside of Healing Touch and Tranquility now? Do Holy Pallies have a way to deal with constant AOE damage other than clenching their buttcheeks and spamming Light of Dawn off CD? Do Holy Priests have any sustain healing outside of ticks from Echo of Light (which has to be maintained through regular healing anyway)? If the new artifact tree turned all the healers into copies fair enough, I haven't played since EN. But when last I raided there you didn't expect your Disc Priest to carry everyone through Ursoc's Cacophony, that was your Shaman and Holy Priests' job.

[Remedi]

You're not providing me with specific examples as to HOW my information is outdated, and couldn't even remember that Disc Priest's "healing through damage" passive was called Atonement, yet I'm the one who hasn't played WoW of late? Meanwhile I'm citing spell names, their cooldowns, giving specific combat examples of where each healer excels...whatever though.

I freely admit, the last thing I raided was Emerald Nightmare about 8 months ago, so maybe healers HAVE had a ton of changes and they're all one-size-fits-all à la FFXIV now. But when you won't give me specifics, instead focusing on "Disc isn't a shield healer because Atonement" pedantry and just telling me I'm wrong without any rebuttal using actual game info, it makes me disinclined to believe you.

Do Resto Druids have burst healing outside of Healing Touch and Tranquility now? Do Holy Pallies have a way to deal with constant AOE damage other than clenching their buttcheeks and spamming Light of Dawn off CD? Do Holy Priests have any sustain healing outside of ticks from Echo of Light (which has to be maintained through regular healing anyway)? If the new artifact tree turned all the healers into copies fair enough, I haven't played since EN. But when last I raided there you didn't expect your Disc Priest to carry everyone through Ursoc's Cacophony, that was your Shaman and Holy Priests' job.

Honestly I don't care that much of wow to remember all the names of the mechanics tyvm, however I do remember that disc mastery is now focused on atonement and they do have a group heal now that applies atonement, as for the rest
druid do have burst healing Cds like swiftmend and tree of life, yes PLD don't have a sustained aoe heals, don't really know what you want to imply with sustain healing for priest outside echo.
That said If you think that wow healers are that much different from each others fine by me, I think otherwise and prefer how things are here afterall this is the game I am playing

[RichardButte]

I just think that WoW doesn't have that much of the same problem, likely because of how their damage in raids comes out and how the healers are designed.

It's exactly this.

Because most of XIV's dungeon/raid damage is bursty, the healing classes are all primarily designed around healing bursty damage (or they at least NEED answers for it).

And on the subject of healers being samey, let's not forget that AST is essentially an amalgamation of WHM/SCH with a toggle switch to decide which one you're going to be more like, plus cards.

I mean if you aren't healing right now, as nobody needs it... And you're not getting good hit with a tank busters right now...
Then what are you doing!?

Standing around idle is not a good way to spend the groups time.

Recovering mana so you have enough of it to heal the next big damaging AoE?

I don't reject the idea that enmity/threat, defensive cooldowns, and positioning work in sort of a triad, complimenting one another. I think when you take away any one of those 3 things you make the entirety of the role less interesting. I wouldn't want to give up any of the 3.

Just in my case, taking away the necessity of enmity/threat management would be (is) the most egregious cut, which WoW did.

WoW shifted the paradigm into tanking not being as much about maintaining aggro so much as doing your rotation to put forth as much active mitigation as possible.

Every tank in WoW has loads of either self-healing, self-shielding, self-armor buffing, or evasion buffing, all of which they generate through their respective rotations.