Healer & Tank DPS (WoW vs FFXIV)

[Shurrikhan]

Wrong. A WAR doesn't get any defensive buffs except increased spell healing, and most healers use oGCD's to heal, not spells. A WAR in Defiance on trash makes me sigh because he's sacrificing damage in exchange for literally nothing. Defiance might as well not even exist for SCH.

The massive weakness of one tank's tank stance... that one in five of its users cannot even recognize.

I do hope they'll eventually turn Defiance into a buff to all healing taken, including self-healing and damage-converted healing, but until then I guess it still stands as a decent tooltip comprehension check?

[Shurrikhan]

Could you please tell me how any healer not doing any DPS (out of OS3 or OS4 for now) is "underperformance at one's team's expense" ? For any content (out of OS3 & OS4), a dps check not being met means your DPS guys are falling behind. Plain and simple.

I think you've got this backwards...

Let's say you join a whistle farm group for Lakshimi or Susano Ex. Neither of these need healer DPS, by any stretch. But you can either do 10 runs in 100 minutes, or in 90, by virtue of healer dps, at no increased chance to wiping (which would have set you back from 90 to 99 minutes)—merely a increased extent of effort.

Is there a reason not to accelerate those runs?

Similarly, a DPS could just do 1-2-3 rotations, ignore their self-buffs, and push back the time it takes to make 10 clears by the same amount. Doing it right costs it nothing but increased effort. Should they be excused because they'd still clear before enrage regardless? If clearing the fight before enrage (i.e. at all) is their only job, why expect optimal or even near-optimal performance out of them? Or why expect them to dodge or participate in stacks if they're already doing all the DPS needed to fulfill their "role"?

Efforts being nearly equal (actually, higher to contribute the same increased rDPS in going from a lackluster to optimal DPS on many a job than to fill in downtime with DPS as a healer), why should one's performance gap be excused and the other's not?

I'm not saying to excuse DPS, but to ask that healers both heal and deal damage is not a double standard. Their only "job", like anyone else's is to clear in a timely manner, making best use of their kit. It's an extent of effort relative to opportunity—of real performance relative to potential, and the attention required to bridge the gap. Asking, however, that a DPS expend full effort to play near-optimally while chalking up using healer downtime at all to "choice" (as others, not necessarily you, have done) is a double standard.

I am asking that they know their jobs, and put in the effort. No more, no less. There is no point where underperformance ought to be excused only because it is not absolutely necessary.

[Ayer2015]

My take on it.... FF14 has a very loud opinionated segment of its the community. Unfortunately the masses actually listen to them.

[Elfidan]

My take on it.... FF14 has a very loud opinionated segment of its the community. Unfortunately the masses actually listen to them.

Like tweens desperate to be as cool as their big brother Biff. Biff has a motorcycle... he's so cool!

[Felis]

To be entirely fair, this was initially stated back in Gordias, where it was a flat out lie.

This was because they used the wrong ilevel during the tests, not because the dev healer did dmg

[Bourne_Endeavor]

If only more people thought that way. But sadly it appears that will never be the case. It's general "DPS or be ridiculed, insulted, and harassed."

Being asked to contribute more then the bear minimum isn't the same as being ridiculed. Most raid groups will make a slightly snarky comment at most if the healer isn't DPSing. They don't go off on a rant about it.

[Araxes]

There is just a lot more to do for a Healer in Wow and for Tanks the Same. Thats why noone espects them to do sick DPS. I recently started to Play WoW again because of the Destruction of FFXIV pvp with 4.0 and its so much more chilled there when it comes to Raids or Dungeons. It kinda feels like all the toxic Players from WoW moved to FFXIV.

[Pells]

There are less DPS in raids in comparison to WoW. Half of your raid here is DPS while in WoW it's around 70%.
Healers here also do significantly more damage than in WoW. They do around 30% of an actual DPS while in WoW you'd be lucky to break 10%.

The encounters in this game are definitely designed around healers and tanks contributing DPS. If it weren't the DPS checks would be absolute jokes.

The dps checks -are- absolute jokes.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

The dps checks -are- absolute jokes.

TBF, the one time they did account for tank/healer dps we got a raid that completely crushed the vast majority of the raid scene. (Let's be honest, there's no way Gordias didn't include tank/healer dps, and the entire game has suffered as a result).

[zipzo]

There is just a lot...

Healers I would agree have a lot to do usually in WoW, but I would disagree fervently with tanks being in a similar state. Tanking is, as of now in Legion, the most boring and low maintenance role in the game.

Furthermore, WoW tanks do not have a branching set of actions dedicated specifically as the "DPS combo" or the "Enmity combo". It's just one set of skills. So not only do they not have much to do because threat management doesn't exist and positioning is easy, but they spend the entire fight hitting the mob with their optimal DPS abilities, with all of their defensive CDs usually being oGCD to boot.

There is literally 0 reason a tank shouldn't be focusing on their damage in WoW, in my opinion, and in practice this actually does happen at the higher level. There are some pretty impressive tank parses, and I would argue that tanks literally can do ~2/3 of a normal DPS in WoW when they actually try, and top tank DPS parses prove that.